|
9
(List D refers to Richard’s List D
Vineeto’s Selected Correspondence Out-from-Control
CLAUDIU: Then I wonder what the next objection is and I have trouble finding one – or in other words like there isn’t really one. Although there must be something else it would have happened? Might be more about finding additional reasons and/or motivation to take the final step. A huge one
was identifying the pattern I have to withdraw and go into a complete “not caring“ anymore, just turning away
from a situation or a problem. I saw in a flash just how deeply depraved that actually is, and how I don’t want to do
that anymore in my life – and it appears to have disappeared entirely! VINEETO: Hi Claudiu, This is a significant pattern to have identified and it’s a very common reaction (strongly conditioned and upheld by society as well) mainly for males and a lot of females too. And it is not easy to talk about it because when you withdraw, you naturally don’t communicate. The “not caring“ is of course only a defensive front because if in such a situation you really didn’t care you would not have to withdraw from feeling hurt. It is indeed “depraved“ not in its moral meaning (bad, sordid or wicked), but in the sense of “depraving you“ from being able to resolve the problem and not get triggered again in a similar situation. It is also “depraving you“ from experiencing intimacy with your fellow human beings each time it comes into play. So it is really wonderful that you say “it appears to have disappeared entirely“ – just be attentive if/when a habitual reoccurrence wants to manifest. CLAUDIU: Also for the longest time there was a little actualist voice in my head (that was ‘me’ of course) telling me that I should proceed, coaxing me along, imploring me, giving the feeling or appearance of this being an ‘important’ (as in ‘serious’) thing, essentially making a drama out of it – and now I see that that’s silly, totally unnecessary. Maybe it helped in the past but it just doesn’t seem to be a useful thing anymore! […] And yet even though it is not ‘important’ as in ‘serious’ – and there is no feeling or ‘rush’ to do it in a real-world time-pressure sense – it is clear it is important as in having a large and meaningful impact on this body, the bodies of those closest to me, and the world at large. And I was about to write that the sooner it happens the better, but even this does not seem to convey it exactly, is there really a “sooner“ as opposed to a “later“? It is always just now anyway, after all… VINEETO: It is amazing how often the cunningness of the identity is in operation – here ‘you’, the identity, is masquerading as an “actualist voice“ urging you on, whilst the very fact that there is an identity urging you, veils or distracts of even puts you off from what you actually want to bring about! The aim of ‘me’ is to literally create a diversion and drain the energy of going forward by putting you in conflict with your own aim. And then, as a result of not enjoying the conflict created by this “actualist voice“ you give in and ask if “there really a “sooner” as opposed to a “later”? And that “It is always just now anyway, after all…“ This is a copout, a semantic trick, to stifle your intent to become free now, and if not now then at the next opportunity to present itself. Only a four days ago you wrote –
CLAUDIU: Yes I thought the same after reading it! VINEETO: ‘Vineeto’ called these occurrences ‘furphy’ [(Austral. Slang): a false report or rumour; an absurd story] each time ‘she’ successfully exposed one of those cunning diversions. It became a fascinating game for ‘her’ to discover them as quickly as possible. You may need to arm yourself with fascinated attention, charged up with pure intent, to unveil, decode, disarm and unmask all these ‘little’ diversions and furphies created by a very cunning ‘self’-preserving identity, presented in a last-ditch effort to prevent you from reaching your destiny. CLAUDIU to Felix: Oo is it that we have another joiner of the
out-from-control club? VINEETO: Just for the record – being out-from-control is not a stable
condition but a transitory stage of a more or less ongoing excellence experience in the process of becoming free. As
such it is not a “club” to leisurely hang out in forever. Look, here is the history of virtual freedom so far –
Richard had to inadvertently veer off into Spiritual Enlightenment after about six months of “dynamic virtual freedom” 
(Direct Route, James, 17 January 2010).
Here is how ‘Vineeto’ described this period in the Direct Route – “I experienced an ever-increasing pull to move forward into what I clearly and unambiguously recognized as my destiny – an irrevocable freedom from the human condition. It set in motion a process that was to undo all of my remaining bonds to humanity, my residue of inhibitions, my last hesitations and any and all lingering doubts. Having finally arrived at being out-from-control, living the ‘beer’ rather then being the ‘doer’, filled me with a previously unknown confidence and certainty that ‘my’ redemption was indeed nigh. To step out from control was a step deliberately taken, after sufficient clearing of the ground, so to speak, and after sufficiently ascertaining that what I wanted was indeed what I was aiming for (the genuine article of an actual freedom). Taking that step ‘I’ then willingly and with intent gave myself permission to allow the universe to pull me forward ever more strongly into the hitherto entirely unknown territory that lay between me and the ultimate goal. […] The other observation from this period of being out-from-control […] I remember clearly one day sitting in a circle of 5 friends, utterly relaxed despite the fact that I had never met one of them in person, and I noticed that I had no personal agenda whatsoever, no plan to stir the conversation into a particular direction, nothing to emphasize or hide, no self-centredness or favouritism, no shame, shyness, embarrassment, no power or drive – I was just being myself as I was. I sat in this group, as one of many, and my sole interest was that everyone present (including me as one of those present) enjoyed themselves/ obtained the maximum benefit from our meeting. I experienced myself as being unreservedly at ease and utterly benign and wasn’t driven to say anything unless it contributed to the overall quality of the conversation.” (i.e. no ‘self’-centredness whatsoever). […] “During the period of being out-from-control the identity (being the ‘beer’
as opposed to being the in-control ‘doer’) gallops ahead closer and closer to her/his destiny.” Just to emphasize – it’s not a membership-club, it’s more like being a fast-running tide carrying you inevitably towards your ultimate destiny. Cheers Vineeto
CLAUDIU: I think there’s just a disconnect here. The funny and delightful thing is that from the self centric way of being it’s a big social identity issue, wanting to show that I “know the answer” and defend myself. But writing now from the being naive way of being it just doesn’t ‘matter’ at all haha, at least this aspect of it. In any case it does seem beneficial to flesh it out in case I am missing something. So: If you read it as a normal/in-control self-centric being looking at a checkbox of stuff like “ooh gotta add some caring” and “oh yea can’t forget about the altruism!”, trying to check off boxes or add these in as ingredients to some dish, then I can see why you wrote what you did. Indeed it’s obvious that wouldn’t work, that isn’t how to proceed from being in an in control way of being. The way to proceed is rather to go from an out from control way of being which is what being naïveté is, which is also called an excellence experience. This isn’t an out from control virtual freedom, the distinction there (which I asked Richard about) is that pure intent isn’t fully and dynamically operative yet. But that’s just words describing something I haven’t experienced yet so it’s not so relevant now except as to know there’s something ‘more’ (but it is unknown to me what that is like). VINEETO: Hi Claudiu, I demure. You can only proceed from where you are at. How can you “go from an out from control way of being” when you are not in “an out from control way of being”? How can you go from “being naïveté” when you are not “being naïveté”? Being naïveté itself is to be permanently out-from-control.
Given that you recognized CLAUDIU: So what I was attempting to convey, perhaps poorly, is that the way to continue from here seems to be to more consistently be naïveté, to be more and more of the time in this excellence experience way of being rather than not. I put ‘stabilize’ in squotes cause it’s not a great word, but don’t know what a good one would be. But basically to be it more consistently. VINEETO: To say it again for emphasis, the change from being in a methodological, in-control virtually freedom to a dynamic out-from-control different way of being is a paradigm shift, not “to be more and more of the time” in the way you have been –
To use a physical-world simile – there is a major difference between driving a car and flying in a rocket-ship. CLAUDIU: And the way doesn’t seem so different from establishing a baseline of feeling good, it’s a matter of noticing when I have fallen out of it and getting back to it soonest. So when you write the way to go out from control virtual freedom is by being naïveté it sounds like you’re saying the same thing — what do you think? (…) Yea I do think we are saying the same thing. Last few days have oscillated from being in control
self-centric way of being and feeling or wondering if everything is horribly awry and I’m way off track, to the
out-from-control naive way of being and it’s like oh ok I’m basically going in the right direction. As of now I
do think I’m basically on the right track, but the doing/being of it will be the proof in the pudding of course. VINEETO: As the remainder of your reply is in a similar vein of just doing more of the same/ more consistently doing the same, and that we are talking about “the same thing”, let me use your own words of your report when your visit to Geoffrey was still more fresh in your mind –
Even though this first of “two key pieces” does not appear in your list of “main take-aways” I think it is an all-important revelation – that you “had been trying to put myself into actuality”. It might well require a certain gestation period to fully grasp the enormity of the impact on your imaginary way of “trying to put myself into actuality”. Because when fully understood, with all of your ‘being’, not just intellectually, it will have/ would have, completely taken the carpet from under your feet. Hence my reference to a gestation period –
It would be a pity if you missed the full import of what transpired during your visit to a fully free human being. Cheers Vineeto
CLAUDIU: I think we both experienced something like this and what it is like being alive has not changed for me either. And the experiential portions of the reports we have made of it are accurate reports of what it is like, at least I haven’t made anything up. However, does it attain to that which is called “out-from-control virtual freedom” in actualist lingo? There are, I think, two ways to tackle this question. The first is the mapping approach which is trying to determine whether it really is this. What happened with me is: after talking about my experience of being alive with Geoffrey, he described a bit what it was like being out-from-control for ‘him’ in ‘his’ last week, and to me it sounded like a different thing than I was experiencing, and we were in concordance on that. Part of that convo is where he asked me something like, do I think that how I am now will inevitably result in self-immolation, or do I think there is something more I have to do to have it happen? I said it was the latter, and he said something along the lines of that that’s good and he was wondering whether I have been “chilling” / waiting around (or something like this) as a possible reason for why I haven’t self-immolated yet. Another way to take the mapping approach is to compare experience with already-available
descriptions. Is something really described as being “nigh-on unstoppable”
(...) VINEETO: Hi Claudiu, After giving it some deliberation, I decided to comment on the whole topic. One reason is that I encouraged both yourself and Kuba to collect messages from the forum that appeared to fit the description of being out from control for publishing it on the AFT website, when it eventually turned out that this might not be the case. The other reason is that I take the words my correspondents write at face value and therefore can only go by what they write, and not what they live day-to-day, when Claudiu’s visit to Geoffrey provided a more complete experience –
The last but not least reason is that I will have to be more careful in my writing that I better not encourage people to adopt the label of being out-from-control according to what they write, so that time (a person’s and other readers’ most valuable asset) may not be frittered away by believing that they only have to “chill” and wait for the actualism process to complete by itself when this is not yet the case. For additional help in the action of determining your own situation I have collected some
unambiguous quotes from Richard and one from myself from Richard’s selected correspondence
*
*
*
*
Cheers Vineeto
IAN: Hi Vineeto, Could you please go into more detail on this wall of fear and traversing it. How did you come across
it, were you aware of it while you were traversing, did anything in particular bring you there, or was it the
inevitable result of increasing naiveté? Would love to get a better picture of this as I get the sense that
something like that is lurking at the edges of my consciousness and possibly what keeps me in the corral. Its hard to
say exactly what would be useful to hear but anything that fills in the blanks a little bit more would be great if
you could. VINEETO: Hi Ian, A very timely question. I recently remembered the whole story and I was looking forward to the right opportunity to tell the story. It happened around end of November/ beginning of December 2009. Richard showed me and Peter a short video where a young woman was filming herself having pleasuring herself with unabashed delight. It was obvious that she was entirely unselfconscious, not acting, not pretending, but simply having a great time. Hers was a genuinely naïve enjoyment and celebration of her sexuality, an unbridled and uninhibited sensuality and sensuosity. ‘Vineeto’ was impressed, and at the end of the video ‘she’ said “if she can do it I can do it”. You’ll have to remember that two weeks before Richard had impressed up ‘her’ to come out-from-control When Respondent No. 4(D) met us [Peter, Pamela, Tom, Richard and myself] on 5th December 2009, ‘Vineeto’ finally noticed the change in ‘herself’ and happily whispered to Richard “psst, I am out-from-control” –
Funnily enough, I completely forgot the event which had set it all in motion and allowed me to traverse the ‘wall of fear’ without noticing what ‘I’ had done, so to speak. Obviously, my social-conditioned mind still had come to terms with the newly discovered reality. It was months later when Richard reminded me of the ‘fear-shattering’ event. It’s quite a laugh! Cheers Vineeto
VINEETO to Ian: ‘Vineeto’ was impressed, and at the end of the video ‘she’ said “if she can do it I can do it”. (…) So ‘Peter’ and ‘Vineeto’ went to the bedroom, and with such naïve demonstration it was indeed easy to imitate
and replicate the naïve unbridled enjoyment of sexuality and sensuality. That’s how ‘Vineeto’ lost ‘her’
own inhibitions. KUBA: That is wonderful story, so much so for doing anything sudorific to traverse that wall of fear… Actually in this case it might have been : Sudorific – relating to or causing sweating. So I wonder once ‘Vineeto’ lost ‘her’ inhibitions via naïve unbridled enjoyment of sexuality and sensuality was that the end of feeling like a fraud for ‘her’? What was it like for ‘Vineeto’ once ‘she’ had stepped out from control to interact with Richard? Did that fear of “what he could discover” disappear? VINEETO: Hi Kuba, I had to think back and I can’t remember any feeling “like a fraud” after the event described above. I would say it was due to the fact that ‘she’ was already fully committed to ‘her’ demise without any reservations ‘she’ was aware of. ‘She’ was cognisant that as long as ‘she’ was a feeling being ‘she’ was an impostor but that was not a problem as ‘she’ knew ‘she’ was unreservedly heading towards ‘her’ destiny fast. That knowing comes with the experience of being out-from-control. For instance I remember that day we set off on the journey to our summer holidays in the remote rainforest wilderness, a two-day journey along the main river towards the long and winding tree-framed Bungawalbin Creek, ‘Vineeto’ was sitting on the bow deck while Peter was steering, and her heart was singing all the way because ‘she’ knew with utmost confidence that sometime during those 4-6 weeks of holiday “it” would happen, and every mile travelled brought ‘her’ closer to ‘her’ destiny. It was a glorious day and a wondrous journey, full of joyous anticipation. … And “it” did happen! KUBA: I wonder if this is the direction of the remaining inhibitions for ‘me’ – that there is this shame or fear of knowing that ‘I’ am a fraud. That somehow ‘I’ am ashamed of ‘being’. ‘I’ am ashamed of ‘my’ fear aggression, nurture and desire. It’s like as long as this shame is in place ‘I’ cannot ‘be’ naiveté, because ‘I’ have something to hide. And it is weird because it is ‘my’ fear, aggression, nurture and desire which ‘I’ am hiding and yet in the process of it ‘I’ blame the body? I can see this with the repression of sexuality, in that ‘I’ am the only dirty thing about sexuality and yet the body with its delicious functions was blamed. VINEETO: Look, such existential ‘problems’ are not solved by ruminating about it and dissecting what others have done, only to again busy oneself with ‘my’ shortcomings. You need to live it, do it, and whenever you find a hesitation due to moral and ethical constriction, overcome it instead of habitual hiding or retreating –
(...) Cheers Vineeto
ED: I’ve enjoyed the discussion on this topic immensely and it’s brought up a lot of questions, some that I’ve wondered about for some time. 1. What does out-from-control refer to? Specifically, what is one out-from-control from? My vague understanding is that the feeling-being is no longer under the control of social conditioning. All of those controls have been let go of, however, the feeling-being is still present. But it seems like a touch more than that as there is a shift from the “do-er” to “be-er.” Why are we not the “be-er” right now? VINEETO: Hi Ed, You are a being with the “controller” in charge to regulate all your thinking and feeling towards remaining exactly as you are, to keep the status quo. To keep your beliefs, your ‘truths’, your natural, i.e. passionate tendency for genetic and socially inculcated feelings and actions intact, as they are, to not change human nature. In order to be able to question these tenets of your social identity, whenever any of them interfere with consistently enjoying and appreciating being alive, you need, of course, actively pure intent operating. There is plenty of information in the website, for instance reading attentively Richard’s selected
correspondence ED: 2. How did Richard impress it upon you? What does one look for / aim for that is different than what you were already doing at the time? Could you even understand what he was asking you to do? VINEETO: He specifically asked me to. Of course, I knew what Richard was asking me. The topic had been discussed and explained for weeks the topic of the Topica mailing list discussion. We were gathered for the ‘First Convivium Gathering’ at the navigable end of the Bungawalbin river to further all participants to be, sooner rather than later, in a different-way-of-being –
The tooltip in that 4th paragraph of the quote (when accessed in the original) explains much of what you asked about pure intent and out-from-control. ED: 3. Does being out-from-control guarantee you’ll feel good? My understanding is that during this period the mutiny took place, am I correct? Can you elaborate on the potential for the “bad” & “good” emotions while being out-from-control? VINEETO: Personally, I was consistently being naiveté/ being in an ongoing excellence experience, due to having traversed the wall of fear and having unequivocally agreed to ‘my’ impending demise for 4 and a half weeks, with a disruption of 3 days. You can work out the percentage for yourself. ED: 4. I hate to ask but does this out-from-control state relate to enlightenment in any way, hence the caution to proceed without pure intent fully in place? I notice the “doer” features a lot in their discourse, however the “Absolute” doesn’t feature in being out-from-control. VINEETO: If you hate to ask this you probably already know the answer. It does not. Without “pure intent fully in place” you still have to be weary of the temptation but then you need pure intent operating to be in a different way of being. Only Richard, in the absence of a precedent, had to go through enlightenment – this is no longer necessary and it would be very silly to allow oneself to become enlightened due to being seduced by unexamined ‘good’ feelings. ED: 5. Similar to the above in regards to caution – I’ve often contemplated the
difference between out-of-control and out-from-control. Might you be able to offer a comparison of the two? It almost seems like out-from-control is
free license to be however you want, but the qualitative difference is the pure intent to make peace on earth
apparent – thus one can trust oneself to ‘be’ however one wants. (There seems to be a massive dissociation
here, creating an “entity” that controls and another “entity” that needs to be controlled.) VINEETO: Out-from-control is a different way of being as explained in the above given links. Out of control is anyone giving way/ expressing excessive feelings. Yes, “pure intent to make peace on earth apparent” is gained from the intimate connection betwixt the pristine-purity of an actual innocence and the near-purity of the sincerity of naiveté. When you have this connection you apperceptively know. Neither trust, nor belief, hope or faith is required, in fact they are detrimental. Beware whenever someone tells you, in such typical new-age lingo, to “trust oneself to ‘be’ however one wants”. (...) Cheers Vineeto
ALEXANDER: What is meant by “ascendant beer”? VINEETO: Hi Alexander, As a short summary – in an excellence experience (EE) or intimacy experience (IE) the sophisticated doer (controller) is abeyant and the naïve beer is ascendant. The more you dare to be naïve the more the naïve beer (with pure intent) can come forward. Even though it is best to understand it experientially, when you feel like a child again but with adult sensibilities, I have collected a few of Richard’s quotes for you to theoretically understand more of what the “ascendant beer” refers to –
There is plenty more information on the website, for instance Richard’s selected
correspondence Let me know if that makes it more clear to you. The pragmatic approach is to be ruthlessly honest with yourself, utterly sincere, and thus allow your hidden-since-puberty naiveté to come to the fore. Cheers Vineeto
VINEETO: Personally, I was consistently being naiveté/ being in an ongoing excellence experience, due to having traversed the wall of fear and having fully agreed to ‘my’ impending demise for 4 and a half weeks, with a disruption of 3 days. You can work out the percentage for yourself. ED: Were you no longer out-from-control for those 3 days? I guess I wonder if being out-from-control played a part in you getting swept into the emotions of the event – with no boundaries or limitations to control how you should feel. No loyalty to Richard or the image of yourself that had been a practicing actualist. VINEETO: And I wonder why you keep asking (3 times now) about those 3 days during my actualism process rather than asking how I succeeded to become actually free, especially as this particular event most likely won’t have any relevance any longer for those aspiring to become actually free? To explain: For the very first pioneers ‘insanity’ played a prominent role for several reasons – * Richard described his enlightenment period also as 11 years of institutionalised insanity and repeatedly warned everyone about it. * Feeling being ‘Vineeto’ was at times witness to both Richard’s second wife (de jure) and
his third wife (de facto) being fearful of Richard being insane (his second wife responded to this fear by living in
and out of an ASC (“The Goddess all humankind had been expecting“).
* Several people on the mailing list went on and on about Richard having
particular forms of insanity based on their own amateurish long-distance diagnoses. ‘Vineeto’ had never been (consciously) affected by these quite ridiculous amateurish long-distance claims and ‘she’ had plenty of PCEs of ‘her’ own to know what ‘she’ was aiming for … until the mutiny occurred –
Here is another statement about the mutiny –
‘Vineeto’ was one of the people infected by the “panic-stricken“ strong vibes, which corresponded to ‘her’ own atavistic fear of being insane/ Richard being insane after all, which ‘she’ had not been aware of all this while – a fear which ‘she’ experienced as being more dire than death itself. Hence it took three days for ‘her’ to come to ‘her’ senses. However, upon her return to the convivium, before ‘she’ had even spoken with Richard, an event happened which I recently relayed –
As such, it was all a necessary precursor (necessary because it happened) to clean out the last remnants of any resistance to becoming actually free, which happened only a few days later. The reason I said that “this particular event most likely won’t have any relevance any longer for those aspiring to become actually free“ is because the Direct Route has been opened, so demonstrably no one needs to venture close to enlightenment (institutionalised insanity) in order to become actually free. Also because it has been, again demonstrably, proven that an actual freedom is replicable by several people so far, the fear of going insane never needs to come up at all. ‘Nough said. (...) Cheers Vineeto
ALEXANDER: Thanks for all the quotes Vineeto. Yes this clarified it a lot. I must have come across it before but just didn’t remember it. Having that terminology and way of seeing what I’m doing is helpful. Is it correct to say there is no psychological component to the beer? It’s just feeling at its
core? VINEETO: Hi Alexander, You are welcome. It is not correct. When Richard says the ‘doer’ is descendant whilst ‘beer’ is ascendant, it means the sophisticated controller, the one who philosophises, plans, maps, directs and interferes into what is happening of its own accord, is substantially diminished and thus the naïve ‘beer’ is able to allow dynamically life living itself (or let the universe live one) with pure intent pulling one forward to one’s destiny, i.e. an actual freedom and the demise of ‘me’. As being out-from-control in a different-way-of-being is still within the human condition, the instinctual passions and the psychological/ psychic/ imaginative identity formed thereof is still operating. It only ceases with ‘my’ extinction. The best way to understand this is to be naïve, even better, be an excellence experience, and from this different way of being contemplate how you are experiencing yourself when your own ‘doer’/ controller is temporarily in the background. Cheers Vineeto
VINEETO: I wonder why you would want to spend more of your most valuable asset, your time, to give way to your “temptation” to search for theoretical semantic “similarities” between spiritualism and your concept of actualism. ED: In this case it’s wondering if the ‘doer’ / ‘beer’ word choice had anything to do with the ‘doer’/ ‘beer’ language in spirituality. There are plenty of cases of Richard using spiritual vocabulary. What’s becoming clear is that any spiritual understanding of a word cannot be useful since the words and understandings stem from spiritual experiences and not from entirely new to human experience experiences that actualist pioneers are navigating. (…) VINEETO: Hi Ed, The ‘doer’/ ‘beer’ terminology does has nothing to do with any of the spiritual definitions, and I already sent you a quote explaining that which you commented on. Viz.:
The ‘doer’ is the sophisticated (philosophising, rational, conceptualising and controlling) ‘doer’ whereas the ‘beer’ is a benign naïve ‘beer’ within the scales of naiveté ranging from being sincere to becoming naïve and all the way through being naïveté itself to an actual innocence (in a PCE), such as described in Grace’s scale of intimacy –
More on not mixing spiritual practice with actualist practice –
* VINEETO: A more fruitful investigation would be why you have this temptation (=feeling) in the first place? Is it perhaps to justify having spent so many years of your life in a fruitless endeavour and have difficulties (or pride) to admit that it was a futile enterprise? Or is it to delay dedicating your life doing something worthwhile? ED: The mistake is equating Richard’s use of the words “beer/doer” to the spiritualist’s use of the words and thinking that something could be gleaned from their writing. I can tell you that it’s neither of the options you present me but there are other avenues worth exploring. I’d be happy to navigate that with you in good faith if you’re interested. Because you didn’t answer the initial question directly, “does being out-from-control guarantee you’ll feel good? ... VINEETO: As there were multiple quotes presented which describe that being out-from-control is dynamic and that Devika relapsed from her dynamic virtual freedom I wonder why you still have to ask if feeling good is either guaranteed or permanent. Only the complete disappearance of the instinctual passions and the identity formed thereof is irrevocable, i.e. guaranteed and permanent. ED: Can you elaborate on the potential for the ‘bad’ and ‘good’ emotions while being out-from-control?” Looking back on the correspondence, you don’t address that question. VINEETO: I did not address this question specifically because the answer regarding “‘bad’ and ‘good’ emotions” is inherent in every description of what being out-from-control is – an ongoing excellence/ intimacy experience –
An excellence experience is clearly explained as feeling excellent
And here is why you perhaps have difficulties to wrap your mind around the experiential aspect of this topic –
ED: Can you elaborate on the potential for the ‘bad’ and ‘good’ emotions while being out-from-control? Looking back on the correspondence, you don’t address that question. VINEETO: I did answer the question but you were dissatisfied –
As for “potential”, synonyms: possible, prospective, future, probable (Oxford Languages) – this is a hypothetical question, a thought-out projection about potential into the future and cannot be answered. In other words, it is the controller who want to map out every step and ascertain the risks before experientially putting the first toe in the water, taking the first step into naiveté. As the way to being out-from-control is only when the controller, the ‘doer’ is descendant, i.e. moving into the background, such a map will not only be useless but counterproductive to naiveté. Perhaps Geoffrey’s apposite ditty expresses it most succinctly and to the point –
ED: You state you were consistently being naiveté for 4 1/2 weeks with a disruption of 3 days and then tell me to work out the math as if I care about the length of the disruption. I’m not presenting a “gotcha” question. You told me you were being naiveté for 4 and 1/2 weeks with a disruption of 3 days. I’m asking if being out-from-control was disrupted for those 3 days. Obviously being naiveté was disrupted. Are they one-in-the-same? Perhaps that’s where the confusion on my end is and you can tell me as much. VINEETO: What I can say is that being out-from-control was disrupted (=interrupted by being out-of-control) but the fact that ‘Vineeto’ had been out-from-control and could easily pick up ‘her’ connection to pure intent) and was fully committed to become free, the turning into an out-of-control period was only short and being out-from-control recommence with “being in full allowance of the benignity and benevolence inherent to pure intent being dynamically operative” after that particular disrupting issue (the fear of Richard being insane) had been settled. ED: I’m trying to understand if it’s a permanent state or not. And if it is permanent why the detour and can being out-from-control include the ‘bad/good’ feelings? Or, does one cease being out-from-control the moment they arise? Why is it different from an ongoing EE to necessitate it’s own vocabulary? Even at the end of your last post you describe it as a disruption of an ongoing excellence experience – not a disruption of being out-from-control. If the two are the same, then an EE is synonymous with being out-from-control. Given what you’ve said, am I understanding correctly that you were out-from-control, and then no longer out-from-control for 3-days, only to resume being out-from-control? VINEETO: Yes. The reason why I didn’t answer that is because it was already clear from the links I provided (if you read them with attention that it is not permanent as Devika had clearly demonstrated that anyone can abandon pure intent at any time and take back control over ‘my’ life. This is not like buying an item with a ‘money-back guarantee’ – it is your life and freedom is in ‘your’ hands and ‘your’ hands alone. Life is not all black and white and neither is the process of working one’s way out of the maze of the human condition. As I said, it’s experiential. ED: If you’re wondering why I’m asking questions then the
best way to find out is by answering directly so the conversation can proceed. While it may be obvious to you that
the event (a disruption during the best example of being out-from-control) most likely won’t have any relevance to
those aspiring to become actually free – it may not be so obvious to me. I don’t know what to tell you other than
my questions are coming from a genuine place. VINEETO: Perhaps this clear and extensive description/ clarification from Richard will
settle your theoretical query until you have enough experiential expertise to settle it for yourself (it is from a
file called “Richard’s Selected Correspondence, Dynamic Virtual Freedom”
In regards to your first question, “in this case it’s wondering if the ‘doer’/ ‘beer’ word choice had anything to do with the ‘doer’/ ‘beer’ language in spirituality. There are plenty of cases of Richard using spiritual vocabulary” – When Richard is “using spiritual vocabulary” it is obvious from the context, when reading attentively, that he is talking about his enlightenment or another’s spiritual experience. Additionally, you need to take into consideration that Richard first wrote to a Buddhist mailing list (List A), then to a Krishnamurti mailing list (List B) and several correspondences to a John-de-Ruiter spiritual mailing list. He naturally adapted his writing to have his co-respondents understand what he was saying but always made it clear where the difference lay to an actual freedom. So your throw-away justification has no substance. Whereas when you are attentive to where you (automatically/ inadvertently) insert your own spiritual interpretation into Richard’s words and/or overlook the context in which the correspondence was written, then there is no reason to blame Richard for his use of language as being the cause for your own mix-up, and/or skipping over information that does not instantly answer your specific question. And now, again you say it is my fault that I “didn’t answer the initial question directly” where the answer was in plain sight in the various links I provided all along. For instance –
*
*
*
Your high-handed dismissal of my replies (as in blaming Richard and myself for your own mis-understanding/ non-understanding) are not conducive to gaining a broader comprehension of what constitutes a dynamic, different-way-of-being. All I can do now is to recommend approaching the topic sincerely and naïvely, allowing yourself to think outside the box of both spiritualism and materialism, and perhaps even experientially find out for yourself what a different-way-of-being is like. To put it differently, if you read the AFT website with full affective attentiveness (with all your heart) and better still, with all your being and a connection with pure intent, then something can happen and shift in your understanding. People have reported having PCEs resulting from reading it with this attitude. Then apperceptive awareness can provide clarity. In short, I cannot do the thinking for you. Regards Vineeto
KUBA: And I am scared of this, because I have seen just how quickly the so-called goodness flips into malice, that I am a friend as long as I “play ball” and then very quickly I become foe. Actually the correspondence Richard had on the AFT when he first went public is a perfect demonstration of this, and the same for ‘Peter’ and ‘Vineeto’. What incredible push back against well meaning fellow human beings demonstrating a different way of doing things. This is certainly what I have enjoyed immensely when talking with you Vineeto, that there is no
malice that I could accidentally trigger, it is so safe. And of course at times you will discover something that will
trigger ‘me’ but that is ‘my’ business. It is an impression which has burned itself deep into ‘me’,
seeing what it is like to interact with somebody that will never ever ‘bite’. VINEETO: Hi Kuba, I appreciate your perspicacity – and it gives you lived examples how you yourself can not only
survive but thrive without the instinctual passions operating, in a felicitous and innocuous way, especially as you
told me in a memorable post that “in short what ‘I’ deeply and passionately care about is to be innocence
personified.” I am also amazed how quickly being scared of the (imagined) consequences of being naïve have
evaporated after you “allowed ‘myself’ to deeply feel and fully divulge this feeling”. KUBA: Ok so I am starting to understand what is being spoken about with regards to being out from control. In that so far the success of the actualism method has relied on ‘my’ ongoing imitative felicity and innocuity, this is what delivers an in control virtual freedom. It is ‘my’ involvement each moment again which ensures a consistent virtual peace and harmony. VINEETO: If you mean “imitative” in the sense that you imitate actuality, being naively happy and harmless is indeed imitating the actual experience of a PCE until ‘your’ demise. KUBA: And now having gained confidence in the ultimate beneficence of the universe ‘I’ can allow an ongoing felicity and innocuity and an ongoing peace and harmony which is no longer of ‘my’ doing. VINEETO: Ah, now I understand the way you meant “imitative” – not instigated/ generated by the ‘controller’ but pure intent given free reign by the naïve beer. KUBA: I twigged onto this when I caught myself planning for the BJJ session which I am to teach tonight. And then I realised that I already know that it will go well, that ‘I’ don’t have to be vigilant anymore and that instead ‘I’ can allow the session to run itself. And that not only is this safe but even better than ‘I’ can otherwise accomplish through vigilance. It seems this is the direction to travel, that it is through having confidence in the ultimate
beneficence of the universe that ‘I’ allow the perfection and purity which has nothing to do with ‘me’ to live this life more and more. That is to
say ‘I’ can step out from control. VINEETO: And this is truly wonderful. Cheers Vineeto
KUBA: Hi Vineeto, Thank you for those replies, I did read them but there has been a lot going on recently. There was in particular 2 events which happened over the past few days that “shook the boat” quite significantly so I have been somewhat all over the place. It seems it is quite a precarious place to be in when the controls are let go of, I remember around Christmas time last year it also seemed like ‘I’ was on the verge of disappearing and then an event involving a fellow actualist also shook ‘me’ significantly. It seems like there is a risk of going out of control, like ‘I’ am very vulnerable. VINEETO: Hi Kuba, You feel vulnerable because with the sophisticated ‘doer’ being descendant you can no longer automatically rely on your socio-cultural inwit, a.k.a. conscience, to not get into trouble, hence you now need to orient yourself to, and rely upon, the compass of pure intent. Ha, Richard used to say –
KUBA: Also with regards to intimacy experiences I find
something similar, that when a lot is “going on” and I don’t quite know where to place myself, it is
quite difficult to allow such interaction, it is like I am operating with a fragmented mind. VINEETO: Mmh, why do you need to “place myself” – isn’t your aim, informed by pure intent and especially in intimacy, to lose ‘yourself’? The “fragmented mind” could to be indicator of a remnant hesitation to lose ‘yourself’. That’s where the tyre meets the road, so to speak. KUBA: I am always amazed at Richard and his mettle, how he went
through insanity to end up in the actual world, and with no precedent at all, what an incredible achievement. But it
seems like when I am in that precarious place it could fall one way or another, actuality or insanity. VINEETO: I suggest to first get back to feeling good before you make an assessment about your state of mind. Then find your connection to pure intent and experience the beneficence and benevolence issuing forth from the purity of the stillness of this infinite universe. In this stillness you will find the confidence and certainty that nothing can go wrong. Cheers Vineeto
KUBA: Things are still going well, I can see now what I have been doing the past year, in that ‘I’ would creep up to the possibility of something happening and then ‘I’ would immediately arrogate ‘myself’ over the whole process and it would all become stillborn once again. Those things which you have mentioned to me Vineeto – such as standing still and letting the dust settle, this is making sense now. In that ‘I’ cannot end ‘myself’ but ‘I’ can actively set in motion a process that will result in ‘my’ demise. VINEETO: Hi Kuba, Indeed – the way to "actively set in motion a process that will result in ‘my’ demise" is described here …
KUBA: So what I have been doing is acclimatising myself to remain in that place where all is wonderful, without moving in either direction. It’s fascinating because ‘I’ am standing still and yet a lot is going on. But somehow in the past this is precisely where ‘I’ would feel this need to pull the trigger on something, to move somewhere, do something. Perhaps because allowing this process is literally eroding at ‘my’ very foundations, it’s inviting the final situation where ‘I’ am exposed. There are still brief reversions into ‘me’ surviving again, but this is less and less now. I experience it as if there are no objections anymore but of course there must be something. BUT I understand now that whatever the last objection may be, ‘I’ am not to go looking for it/ solving it as the ‘doer’, it can come naturally to the surface whilst ‘I’ remain in the wonderful place. VINEETO: The more objections fall by the wayside, and the more you are acclimatising yourself to "that place where all is wonderful", the less ‘self’-centric you find yourself to be, because "that place where all is wonderful" is for everybody. In other words, such diminished ‘self’-centricity makes room for a genuine caring for your fellow human beings, who are all as much afflicted with being an alien identity as you are. Here is something you can try just for fun and pure enjoyment –
KUBA: I do have an inkling that it is related to the
irrevocability of actual freedom, not that it is difficult or dangerous or anything of the kind rather that it is
irrevocable – but that irrevocability, it is also wonderful… No way at all to ever go back to the land of lament.
In fact if it was not irrevocable it would not be the final solution, it would not deliver the goods. Hehe Richard
wrote that he would not change a single bit about the universe, I find that more and more these days, it is perfect.
VINEETO: And now that you are gradually coming to terms with the once-in-a-lifetime-decision to leave your ‘self’ behind (which, once taken, cannot be undone) the intermediate playground becomes obvious and the next sensible step … KUBA: It has become clear to me why stepping out from control is what happens
prior to self-immolation, … VINEETO: With increasing diminishment of self-centredness/ self-centricity this is where the real fun, delight, marvel and wonder can fully flourish and full benefit of the actualism way of living reveals itself. Appreciation expands into wonder, amazement, joie de vivre, amiability, bonhomie, relish, gusto and naïve sensuosity and intimacy. Cheers Vineeto
KUBA: Hi Vineeto, VINEETO: What is the point in bewailing “the addiction to ‘being’ i.e.
suffering” when you can do something practical to diminish this addiction? You already know how ‘to get down
to brass tacks’, as they say. KUBA: Hehe yes I do know how to “get down to brass tacks” in
fact I have used this practical knowledge recently to push into new territory, which is fabulous!
A few days ago I realised that although I did a good job of exploring, investigating and diminishing the “human constitution” I nevertheless stopped each time right when the “lid was off” and ‘I’ was experienced where ‘I’ am forever threatened, where the core of ‘me’ as an instinctual ‘being’ is seen. In fact what I see clearly now is that all the armchair philosophising and steeple chasing
(anything but doing) was exactly that, a way to avoid seeing ‘myself’ were ‘I’ am forever threatened. And
it’s actually quite impressive what efforts ‘I’ went to in order to prevent the bright light of awareness from
being cast on the innermost recesses of ‘my’ being. VINEETO: Hi Kuba, What a marvellous report. I find it fascinating that you were only able to venture into the
further, frightful regions of the psyche after you had irrevocably abandoned “armchair philosophising and
steeple chasing” as viable alternatives. Imagination can provide this “ethereal/ non-existent/ imagined
target of projected perfection” as Felix so aptly called it A genuine transition from the old spiritually-instilled ‘it’s-all-in-your-mind’ paradigm
needs to be consciously abandoned to “get down to brass tacks”, in other words, to enter the down-to-earth wide
and wondrous path. (I just thought I put in a plug for the first four words on the Actual Freedom homepage KUBA: So I proceeded into the “frightful place” of the psyche haha, not as a “one and done” situation but with the intent on maintaining a fascinated attention, to explore every nook and cranny of the very depths of ‘my’ being. I thought to myself that I have been tasked with the job of painting the most realistic image of the depths of ‘my’ psyche. I can certainly see why nerves of steel and daring are needed, at first it was as if I would go mad or collapse into an incoherent mess and yet once the storm calmed down somewhat I realised that 1 – These are passions and calentures not facts. 2 – These affective storms leave no emotional scars. In fact I found that after these deep explorations it would be as if someone just wiped a grimy window and now more freedom and more perfection and purity was shining through. VINEETO: This is a very worthwhile observation for any daring pioneer –
One could call your present enterprise “grime-cide”, and when it gets out, there will be plenty of activists who will mount a fervent protest campaign. If you find this unlikely here is something Peter reported in 2000 –
Joking aside, keep in mind that you are not fighting or coercing your psyche but bringing about a cheerful and willing concurrence to ‘your’ long-yearned-for oblivion. KUBA: So I have succeeded where I failed time and time again in the past, I have stepped forward exactly where I would usually turn around. And I know from direct experience now that it is safe to proceed. Since daring to experience the “frightful place of the psyche” I have found myself more and
more in this wondrous “no man’s land”, it is not Terra Actualis but it is certainly not reality anymore. And I
find myself in this wondrous place without the affective storms getting in the way, or when they do come up they
become just another opportunity for ‘me’ to be seen even clearer. VINEETO: This is simply amazing, wonderful, mirificent – I am grinning from ear to ear with delight at your success. I remember Pamela describing this period as being better than her 5-months PCE –
Cheers Vineeto
Freedom from the Human Condition – Happy and Harmless Vineeto’s & Richard’s Text ©The Actual
Freedom Trust: 1997-. All Rights Reserved.
Disclaimer |
