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(List D refers to Richard’s List D
Vineeto’s Correspondence with Chrono on Discuss Actualism Forum
VINEETO: Indeed, this is the very way the actualism method works in a nutshell. By following a self-less inclination you are having fun and vice versa, felicitous and innocuous feelings don’t provide fodder for ‘me’. CHRONO: Much simpler when it’s actually applied as written
haha. I have been reflecting more on what it means to be sincere VINEETO: Hi Chrono, Let me stop you right there. Where you are going with this is that you can never “be in accord with the fact” until you are actually free. This is called a red herring and stops you from even starting. To be sincere, i.e. “in accord with the fact”, means you don’t deceive yourself when a good or bad feeling interferes with enjoyment and appreciation. Therefore you are as honest as you can regarding the feeling which is happening at this very moment of writing this – for example something like “ahh, I can never be sincere, it’s too difficult, I rather stay as I am”. Sincerely acknowledging what is happening you’ll eventually sort it out with the intent to being happy and harmless – and you have demonstrated many times before that you can do that excellently. If you notice imagination happening like creating future scenarios, you sincerely acknowledge that knowing something imagined is not a fact. CHRONO: And my struggle seems to be in seeing that I can never match this effortless perfection. Highlighting the belief that ‘I’ can be perfect. ‘I’ can only allow it through imitating it. ‘I’ can never be it. I feel viscerally conflicted or torn. There must be another belief why I do not simply incline each moment towards it. Perhaps I am jumping the gun again. VINEETO: Of course, if you want to arrive before you start it’s a clear indication you are “jumping the gun” … and sincerely inquiring why you are going on this side-track will inevitably provide the answer and then you sort out what it right in front of you. Remember to get back to feeling good first. * VINEETO: It’s wonderful, isn’t it. To be ‘someone’ is the modus operandi for which you have been conditioned since childhood, backed up by the instinctual imperative of survival – but is this really still necessary? As you say “it’s actually enjoyable when I don’t”. It is also possible because you can be naïve with all your adult sensibility intact. CHRONO: I’m not able to even think of any reason why it’s necessary aside from the usual provisions of the feelings of warmth and belonging. I find it more enjoyable to be happy and harmless. VINEETO: Excellent. What about the “feelings of warmth and belonging” – are you game to boldly go where you haven’t gone before and naïvely explore intimacy between fellow human beings in lieu of “warmth and belonging”? * VINEETO: Yes, the real-world rules, morals and dogmas operate in opposites and have only two alternatives. There is a third alternative. CHRONO: Weirdly has taken me a longer time to figure that out experientially. I just had this realization about sexual desire and why I have “trouble” with it. It occurs in every human being to some extent, so why am I making a big deal out of its occurrence? And I finally realized it, it’s because of repression. There’s a guilt surrounding it as I mentioned previously. But what if there was no guilt? Then I am somehow morally reprehensible. As I previously saw that ‘I’ cannot end ‘me’ and ‘I’ am already born this way, then there’s no taking blame for my feeling this desire. I understand better now where you say:
VINEETO: To ease the pressure of what was originally repressed may take some persistence because repression happened not only because of the “feeling of guilt” but also because it is something unfamiliar to be explored/ experienced as to what happens when you lift the lid, so to speak. It helps to be a friend to yourself and be gentle and consciously enjoy the adventure, without back-pressure from yourself. Richard’s second part of the quote explains why it has never really been allowed to be explored naïvely. CHRONO: And also this section from Article 2 in Richard’s Journal I am able to see in operation:
I am understanding now that the shift to intimacy is a different game altogether from the one that gives sexual desire a central role. That is, my focus on getting rid of it won’t work. VINEETO: Indeed, half the job is to sort out what doesn’t work. The process of getting accustomed/ familiar with naïvely and gently shifting to intimacy in practice, might sometimes appear a balancing act between “holy” and “vulgar”. Don’t fall for either, keep looking for the fun and benevolent way (to yourself and your partner) – the third alternative. * VINEETO: Indeed, being in control is the sole function of this contingent ‘being’, ‘me’, the entity which does not exist in its own right and needs to control to prevent being exposed as such. ‘You’ need to keep working hard to justify ‘your’ existence, whereas “it’s actually enjoyable when I don’t”, when you can allow yourself to be what you are. You lessen control by progressively allowing the obstacles to enjoyment and appreciation to disappear via attentiveness and (if necessary) investigation – and thus by imitating the actual. CHRONO: Yes I recently noticed as it was happening how much that insults and compliments make up this being a someone. If ‘my’ whole point is to survive, then I’m only taking these on personally to survive. And now I have some more cues to look out for. VINEETO: Ha, it is indeed so, when you look at the content of what your “belonging” really consists of – “insults and compliments” – punishment and reward – made valid by the feeling of power or loss thereof. Another confirmation that you were right when you said “being a “someone” is a serious business” … and ”it’s actually enjoyable when I don’t”. * VINEETO: I don’t know what holds authority, anyone’s authority, in place for you. For
‘Vineeto’ the very justification for any authority disappeared in one fell swoop with the startling apperceptive
discovery – <snipped> CHRONO: Actually the only authority I can think of is the authority of Humanity through morals, ethics, and judgements. But it all hinges on the idea of caring. I have been reflecting again on what it means to be caring in the real world vs being carefree and considerate. Can I be carefree AND considerate? I am reading the chapter titled “It is possible to be sensitive without being vulnerable”. And being ‘vulnerable’ in the real world is perhaps the gateway into what real world caring is. VINEETO: The reason the described PCE (now snipped) was such a consequential event for ‘Vineeto’ because ‘she’ realised that every and all authority people assume stems from some god’s authority – god is the ultimate source for what is right and wrong, bad and good (=heaven and hell). All the values by which humans are socialised originate from the ‘Tried and Failed’ legacy of enlightened beings, gods and goddesses. Hence to realise that there is no room for god in an actual infinite, and perfect, universe, and the justification and ultimate origin of right and wrong disappears. The same applies to your “authority of Humanity” and “the idea of caring”. While being caring and considerate are aspects of being harmless, the word “caring” in the real world is generally synonymous with feeling caring, i.e. giving out affective vibes of caring, sympathy and compassion, together with or even instead of practical caring. This is because humanity’s idea of caring is tightly linked to “putting the other before oneself”, being compassionate and self-less. Hence the aim of being harmless together, including the considering the consequences of your words and actions might have, will a clearer guidance for what you want to be –
CHRONO: But what does it mean to actually care? VINEETO:
You can find some more on intimacy and caring in Vineeto, Selected Correspondence, Intimacy CHRONO: I was having an afternoon at work when there was a bout of increased delight. And I remembered that one of the objections that I feel is that ‘I’ need to be here to protect this physical body. When all of a sudden I realized that ‘I’ do not exist to protect this physical body. ‘I’ exist to protect ‘me’. The physical body is secondary to ‘me’. All of ‘my’ caring is self-centred. And I became aware of this most fundamental confusion. This just hit me in a very visceral way and I felt a shiver at the bottom of my spine. And I’ve just been aware since of all of ‘my’ caring since and the inherent self-centeredness of it. VINEETO: Well spotted – “‘I’ exist to protect ‘me’”. Once you are aware of this fact it is much simpler to discover the identity’s tricks and diversions. As always, there is a way of interacting being less self-centred, i.e. being naïvely harmless and considerate and preferring/ valuing intimacy over sexual prowess. CHRONO: Recently a different issue has cropped up and has taken
the place of previous issues. I am seeing indignation and slights featuring more. I for some reason am feeling more
keenly aware of iniquities in every day interactions. I am more aware of ‘injustice’ and ‘unfairness’. I feel
it really deeply. Both in daily interactions and in an overall rule of the world way. Perhaps these are issues I have
not looked at in-depth enough. (I’m writing at work so I’ll have to re-visit my response). VINEETO: Can it be that you notice indignation more because you discovered how much “‘my’ whole point is to survive”? You may find this familiar –
* VINEETO: Are you asking if the habit of being a ‘victim’ is related to a “need for power”? It certainly is, it is the flip-side of the same power structure, which, being sourced in the instinctual passions of fear and aggression, is operating ubiquitously. CHRONO: EDIT: Yes I was thinking they’re related. I can see it being a flip side of the same power structure but am trying to see the third alternative in it. I keep thinking then I’ll be taken advantage of. Actually I think my current issue is related to this being a ‘victim’ and is related to the need for power. Will have to reflect and write more on it soon. VINEETO: Ha, the role of being a ‘victim’ at first appears more virtuous but it is only the other side of aggression inherent to the instinctual passions in each and every feeling being. If you can recognize this and affectively acknowledge it, then neither repressing nor expressing the feeling might allow the third alternative to hove into view. Also the question ‘why do I need power’ may be interesting to contemplate. Personally, I have no power whatsoever. * VINEETO: By choosing to be naïvely happy and harmless you voluntarily withdraw from the battlefield (not as a pacifist or virtue-hunter) but as someone who prefers (i.e. values more) getting along in a beneficial way with your fellow human beings. CHRONO: This does make sense and I am thinking on it further so
that I’m not repressing or expressing indignation in some cunning way. VINEETO: A reminder before you are getting too deep into thinking about the serious problems of life –
VINEETO: Where you are going with this is that you can never “be in accord with the fact” until you are actually free. This is called a red herring and stops you from even starting. To be sincere, i.e. “in accord with the fact”, means you don’t deceive yourself when a good or bad feeling interferes with enjoyment and appreciation. Therefore you are as honest as you can regarding the feeling which is happening at this very moment of writing this – for example something like “ahh, I can never be sincere, it’s too difficult, I rather stay as I am”. Sincerely acknowledging what is happening you’ll eventually sort it out with the intent to being happy and harmless – and you have demonstrated many times before that you can do that excellently. If you notice imagination happening like creating future scenarios, you sincerely acknowledge that knowing something imagined is not a fact. CHRONO: Hi Vineeto, Ah I see now how what I wrote can be construed that way. What I was trying to convey with the
phrase “to be in accord with the fact” was “imitate the actual” (by being happy and harmless).
That is, from the perspective of the actual, the identity is an illusion and not actually existing. But that doesn’t
change the fact that it does “exist” (this reminds me of “drawing the line between feeling and
fact” VINEETO: Hi Chrono, Thank you for your reply and explaining what you wanted to convey. In the correspondence you linked to, Rick was attempting to cunningly prove that feelings are actual, therefore his whole line of reasoning was polluted. What I meant by saying ‘sincerely acknowledging what is happening’ was more explicitly explained in this snippet of ‘Vineeto’s’ correspondence –
Perhaps the word ‘honest’ is more unambiguous for you when it comes to acknowledging, and if necessary, investigating, one’s feelings and beliefs in the process of ‘imitating the actual’? When Richard explains sincerity, he certainly did not indicate that only someone actually free or in a PCE can be sincere –
“Seeing the fact (of anything)” requires honesty, intelligence and perspicacity, being authentic, genuine and straightforward, but in general not a ‘self’-less experience. If sincerity was only possible during a ‘self’-less experience then how could sincerity be the key to naiveté? It would be putting the cart before the horse. It seems you are unnecessarily complicating (sophisticating) the matter. * VINEETO: Of course, if you want to arrive before you start it’s a clear indication you are “jumping the gun” … and sincerely inquiring why you are going on this side-track will inevitably provide the answer and then you sort out what it right in front of you. Remember to get back to feeling good first. CHRONO: Yes I do seem to have that tendency to want to viscerally “jump over” issues. Basically not looking at what’s right in front of me right now but instead trying to jump ahead to know what it is and consequently having the opposite effect. Or the other thing I try to do sometimes is force the seeing and that also has the unintended effect. Very cunning I think. But I’ve been slowly bringing each one into light and these discussions are helping me see what I have been doing. Once again seeing that there are no shortcuts. And I ask myself why I would want to “jump over” and I can feel an angst and agitation continuously operating. Perhaps it will come more to light the more I question it and allow it. VINEETO: Here is something ‘Vineeto’ discovered at the time –
It’s fascinating when you discover how “angst and agitation” are nearly continuously operating like a back-ground engine which keeps ‘me’ in existence. Again, it helps to put everything on a ‘it doesn’t really matter’ basis – this will slowly diminish the urgent quality of your instinctual passions and thus the need to control every move of your life. This passionate urgency seduces ‘you’ to fight against ‘yourself’ in the name of actualism, whereas when you recognize this pattern, you can get back to naïvely enjoying and appreciating being here, genuinely ‘imitating the actual’. Don’t look for problems (which in itself can be an addiction) – you only need to investigate when you are not felicitous/ innocuous, which your ongoing attentiveness will inform you of. CHRONO: I recently became more aware of a belief operating under this which goes like “there’s no way that this is possible (actual freedom)”. When I ask myself why, it felt like then that would mean I have been suffering my whole life for no reason. This is like some sunk cost fallacy and I know that’s how it is for everyone but I really believed that to be the truth (that life is supposed to be grim). It occurs to me “life could have been easy this whole time?”. I’m embarrassed because I have been serious my whole life and I didn’t have to be. Now I see that the belief morphed to a “I wish my suffering meant something” along with a strange feeling of running out of time. VINEETO: Ha, you discover something that could be life-changing – that life is meant to be fun – and what does the identity do, automatically, ‘you’ make it into a problem! It’s a natural ‘self’-protecting reaction, and only informs you how cunning ‘I’ am when feeling in danger of exposure. Recognize the silliness and humour in the situation and voilà, the problem disappears. * VINEETO: What about the “feelings of warmth and belonging” – are you game to boldly go where you haven’t gone before and naïvely explore intimacy between fellow human beings in lieu of “warmth and belonging”? CHRONO: I am indeed, and the adventure part of it is that I turn away from all that I have known and take a step in the direction that I have never gone before. I can feel an automatic reaction then that to turn away means that “it’s a cold and lonely world out there” but I won’t fall for that this time. VINEETO: Yes, you are getting better and better at this game of finding out how ‘you’ tick and how to distinguish between reactive emotion-backed thought and intelligence in action. (…) CHRONO: I can see how it can be a balancing act between “holy” and “vulgar” as I have noted on many occasions that libidinal feelings flip into feelings of deep revulsion and disgust. And perhaps that’s all because of how I’ve approached sexuality. I’ve noticed that I actually do have this belief of uninhibited sensuality and sexuality being “vulgar”. Even writing this I am getting doubts whether I should because I am saying something I shouldn’t be saying. I’m being animalistic by considering it. It’s most likely ‘my’ way of interpreting where I have not gone before and intuiting what would happen were I to lift the lid. But I am aware of this now in a way I was not before and as you suggested I will not fall for either and look for the third alternative. VINEETO: This quote from Richard’s journal * CHRONO: I related a lot to what you wrote here:
Also here you wrote:
As I was thinking on this, I noticed that I have some belief that to see my partner as “just another human being” makes them not special. And I am wondering what makes them special if they are just another human being. I realized that it’s the fact that they want to spend time with me and I want to spend time with them. And I am able to appreciate this fact much more now. Everything else is about ‘me’. VINEETO: Yes, “just another human being” is more than a “belief” – when ‘I’ am in charge, that is how ‘I’ perceive and assess everyone, including oneself – nothing special, either with grey-coloured glasses – gloomy and hostile to ‘me’ – or rose-coloured glasses – loving and trusting towards ‘me’, and hence extensions of ‘me’ “part of ‘my’ world”, as ‘Vineeto’ said. In the second quote ‘she’ described what happened during a PCE, an apperceptive seeing. It was very startling and entirely new to ‘her’ experience. * VINEETO: The reason the described PCE ( The same applies to your “authority of Humanity” and “the idea of caring”. While being caring and considerate are aspects of being harmless, the word “caring” in the real world is generally synonymous with feeling caring, i.e. giving out affective vibes of caring, sympathy and compassion, together with or even instead of practical caring. This is because humanity’s idea of caring is tightly linked to “putting the other before oneself”, being compassionate and self-less. Ha, the role of being a ‘victim’ at first appears more virtuous but it is only the other side of aggression inherent to the instinctual passions in each and every feeling being. If you can recognize this and affectively acknowledge it, then neither repressing nor expressing the feeling might allow the third alternative to hove into view. Also the question ‘why do I need power’ may be interesting to contemplate. Personally, I have no power whatsoever. CHRONO: Yes I did note that God had been the ultimate authority for ‘Vineeto’ and I can see it all come together for me right now. This need for power, authority, and caring seem to be linked and it has clicked for me in the last week. This is because as I’ve noted before that I’ve unwittingly been applying the “putting others before oneself” injunction. It’s actually related to my being a ‘victim’. It does appear that being a ‘victim’ is more virtuous in the real world and gives the false feeling that I am ‘powerless’. I am actually also exerting power by being a ‘victim’ but just not in an overt way. And I noticed that inherent to being a ‘victim’ is the belief that one is then worthy of being saved from harm and suffering. Almost like that by choosing to be a ‘victim’, I am being humble. And an extension of that is the belief that one can be saved by some Higher Authority or Saviour. It is odd because I’ve never seen myself as believing in some Higher Power but I am acting and being as if there was. Perhaps there is more to unfold here. VINEETO: Indeed, it is excellent you start seeing the bigger pattern, and how ultimately all ‘right’ and ‘wrong’, ‘good’ and ‘bad’ injunctions stem from the ‘Tried and Failed’ paradigm Richard described in his Journal, Article Two, you quoted above. When you understand this in its totality, it loses its virtue, attraction and power over you. CHRONO: I can see how pernicious “putting others before oneself” is because it takes all eyes off ‘me’ and ‘I’ can wreak further havoc. I was wondering “why do I need power” and the answer was only in relation to me being a ‘victim’. Where I am not a ‘victim’ (or an aggressor), there is no need for power. I can fully see what it is to be harmless now. And the subsequent discussions on it have clarified a lot. I can see how setting the bar as ‘no malicious feelings present’ does not necessarily mean that I am being harmless. It’s self-centricity itself which is the issue. And in practice I can already see how much more ease and harmony there is. Making harmlessness a top and first priority easily allows happiness to follow because I am considering both myself and the other. VINEETO: Ah, this is wonderful. Diminishing ‘self’-centricity allows you to be increasingly naïve, liking yourself and others and discovering how much fun being alive really is. Here is a snippet from ‘Vineeto’ you might relate to –
* VINEETO: Can it be that you notice indignation more because you discovered how much ‘‘my’ whole point is to survive“? You may find this familiar –
CHRONO: It does make sense now that I think about it. It seems much of my childhood hurts have been held on passionately deep down and are the source of much of my railing against “the system”. I was on a trip with my partner this past week and we finished watching “Mr. Robot” and I related very deeply with the protagonist especially towards the end. I felt his hurts as my own and the indignation and hurt reached fever pitch. This post from Richard is indeed very familiar and timely as it helped backing out of it. I find myself sometimes thinking that I am supposed to hold onto these hurts and slights, otherwise I will let people walk all over me and take advantage of me. But I am an adult now aren’t I? Something further to unfold here which I will come back to. VINEETO: Ha, here you have the old paradigm’s dichotomy again, being either angry/ indignant or being taken advantage of. It will be such a relief when you finally let go of “childhood hurts” and “railing against “the system””. Instead of looking for/ relying on emotional reactions to what you ought to do or avoid, why not make it a habit to assess each situation intelligently, in line with pure intent in order to work out if you can safely let go of your childhood hurts and resentments.
* VINEETO: A reminder before you are getting too deep into thinking about the serious
problems of life – (snipped quote re humour CHRONO: Also a great timely reminder haha. VINEETO:
VINEETO: “Seeing the fact (of anything)” requires honesty, intelligence and
perspicacity, being authentic, genuine and straightforward, but in general not a ‘self’-less experience. If
sincerity was only possible during a ‘self’-less experience then how could sincerity be the key to naiveté? CHRONO: Yes that makes sense and I certainly have been complicating it. So I have been looking at what I feel and acknowledging it without trying to jump ahead or force anything. VINEETO: Hi Chrono, Thank you for your reply. I am pleased you can see the point I was making. * VINEETO: Here is something ‘Vineeto’ discovered at the time – (snipped) It’s fascinating when you discover how “angst and agitation” are nearly continuously operating like a back-ground engine which keeps ‘me’ in existence. Again, it helps to put everything on a ‘it doesn’t really matter’ basis – this will slowly diminish the urgent quality of your instinctual passions and thus the need to control every move of your life. This passionate urgency seduces ‘you’ to fight against ‘yourself’ in the name of actualism, whereas when you recognize this pattern, you can get back to naïvely enjoying and appreciating being here, genuinely ‘imitating the actual’. Don’t look for problems (which in itself can be an addiction) – you only need to investigate when you are not felicitous/ innocuous, which your ongoing attentiveness will inform you of. CHRONO: I’ve been down the road of looking for problems and trying to fix them (and it certainly is an addiction) haha. And couple that with insincerity and the suffering only gets magnified and perpetuated. I’ve fought with myself for long enough. Seeing this cunning operating more clearly, I can apply putting things on an ‘it doesn’t really matter’ basis more effectively now. VINEETO: This is excellent. It takes a bit of getting used to it but when you remember Richard’s quote at the end of this message it makes it all so much more obvious that taking anything serious or emotionally urgent, as per the instinctual imperative, is well and truly a waste of time. * VINEETO: Ha, you discover something that could be life-changing – that life is meant to be fun – and what does the identity do, automatically, ‘you’ make it into a problem! It’s a natural ‘self’-protecting reaction, and only informs you how cunning ‘I’ am when feeling in danger of exposure. Recognize the silliness and humour in the situation and voilà, the problem disappears. CHRONO: Yes I allowed this seeing and I wondered in a gentle way “how would it be if life was meant to be fun from now on?” First it was felt that “life can be fun from now on” is boring (and this I found rather funny) but then that feeling dipped into a deeper feeling which I felt surging throughout my whole body. There was a deep feeling of dread. Basically I became aware that I am mortal. I am going to die and there is no escaping it. Perhaps some part of me has had the belief that ‘I’ could be immortal. That I would be able to cheat death somehow. Death is a fact and there’s no escaping it. It’s rather funny and not funny to me at the same time lol. All of this is connected somehow and one seeing here expands my seeing on the other beliefs. I can see how this relates to the “Tried and Failed”. VINEETO: The desire for immortality certainly relates to the “Tried and Failed”, but it also relates to the instinctual programming to survive at any cost and the fact that ‘I’/ ‘me’ have usurped the role of this body’s keeper. Here is a fascinating insight from Richard on the origin of the universal belief in ‘my’ immortality –
This information might not make it easier to face the “deep feeling of dread” when contemplating that you are mortal. For ‘Vineeto’ the other side of the coin was the very possibility that ‘my’ ‘immortal soul’ can go extinct *before* physical death, exactly what ‘Vineeto’ wanted more than anything else in ‘her’ life (after she learnt about an actual freedom and experienced the actual world in PCEs). So you can see that your fear of death and your search for freedom from the human condition are intimately linked. The fear of death is the ultimate weapon of defence each time ‘you’ feel in danger of being insignificant, diminished or exposed as a contingent being. Being this flesh-and-blood body only there is no fear of death at all.
* VINEETO: This quote from Richard’s journal Yes, “just another human being” is more than a “belief” – when ‘I’ am in charge, that is how ‘I’ perceive and assess everyone, including oneself – nothing special, either with grey-coloured glasses – gloomy and hostile to ‘me’ – or rose-coloured glasses – loving and trusting towards ‘me’, and hence extensions of ‘me’ “part of ‘my’ world”, as ‘Vineeto’ said. In the second quote ‘she’ described what happened during a PCE, an apperceptive seeing. It was very startling and entirely new to ‘her’ experience. Indeed, it is excellent you start seeing the bigger pattern, and how ultimately all ‘right’ and ‘wrong’, ‘good’ and ‘bad’ injunctions stem from the ‘Tried and Failed’ paradigm Richard described in his Journal, Article Two, you quoted above. When you understand this in its totality, it loses its virtue, attraction and power over you. CHRONO: The level to which these injunctions and perhaps spirituality itself have seeped into every nook and cranny of everyday life is astounding. It’s so all-encompassing that you would initially not even be able to conceive of another alternative. VINEETO: It is indeed “all-encompassing” and has not just “seeped” in – spirituality is part and parcel of being a ‘being’ because ‘being’ itself is not actual and as such ‘you’ are ‘a spirit being’, so to speak. Peter described it like this –
This caused a stir of protests on the mailing list, so Richard explained it further –
CHRONO: So I decided to turn away from following my usual way of being about intimacy. And I was simply allowing a “what if?”. Like just suspending ‘my’ path temporarily just to see. Then my eyes were seeing into the softness of being here. I became aware of that sweetness. This sweetness was not directional as if for one person. It was here for everyone. It was markedly different from the usual way of being intimate. It didn’t have to be on a special occasion. It’s always here. I am wondering now if I could always be like this. What’s standing in the way? VINEETO: Ah, this is delicious – it’s the very sweetness of the imminence of pure intent
(see Actualvineeto, Articles, Sweetness * VINEETO: Ah, this is wonderful. Diminishing ‘self’-centricity allows you to be increasingly naïve, liking yourself and others and discovering how much fun being alive really is. Here is a snippet from ‘Vineeto’ you might relate to –
CHRONO: Yes I can relate to that. Sometimes though I feel in people’s sad stories it can flip to compassion. But I can more easily see now how it’s not harmless. I am perpetuating both mine and the others’ suffering when I am being compassionate. But it still feels like a “tug at the heart strings” like I am abandoning everyone. VINEETO: That is the dichotomy of the old paradigm as laid out in Richard’s Journal, 1997, Article Two you quoted in your last message. The third alternative always becomes apparent when you follow neither one or the other of the real-world alternatives. CHRONO: It does make sense now that I think about it. It seems much of my childhood hurts have been held on passionately deep down and are the source of much of my railing against “the system”. I was on a trip with my partner this past week and we finished watching “Mr. Robot” and I related very deeply with the protagonist especially towards the end. I felt his hurts as my own and the indignation and hurt reached fever pitch. This post from Richard is indeed very familiar and timely as it helped backing out of it. I find myself sometimes thinking that I am supposed to hold onto these hurts and slights, otherwise I will let people walk all over me and take advantage of me. But I am an adult now aren’t I? Something further to unfold here which I will come back to. VINEETO: (…) CHRONO: It feels like my biggest current block is those childhood hurts. I am aware of it operating in many situations now. The indignation keeps the hurt in place that I can see. But without the indignation there is only hurt. I’ll try your suggestion and not rely on emotional reactions but instead look at each individual situation intelligently. VINEETO: I quoted something to Andrew yesterday about letting go of childhood hurts, which you might have
already read
At the beginning of that correspondence Richard talks about “the need for a friend” which might be informative for you as well. *
CHRONO: Ha I find it funny that death is what makes everything not serious but also is so serious
for ‘me’. VINEETO: Here is another one for fun –
VINEETO: This is excellent. It takes a bit of getting used to it but when you remember Richard’s quote at the end of this message it makes it all so much more obvious that taking anything serious or emotionally urgent, as per the instinctual imperative, is well and truly a waste of time. CHRONO: I am glad that you pointed this out as an instinctual urgency as framing it this way has helped a lot too. Usually I have approached it as “OCD”. As this way of being does indeed look for problems or create problems (and subsequently try to solve them). The source of which is the “angst and agitation” which I’ve mentioned earlier. I’ve been applying the “it doesn’t really matter basis” to more and more things and it has caused some more ease and enjoyment. VINEETO: Hi Chrono, Remember that it is still the case of what you said before –
And I replied that it was “in line with what Sigmund Freud classified as the aim of psychiatry: to return
patients “back to a state of as near-normal functioning as possible (and ‘normal’ is
categorised by Mr. Sigmund Freud as ‘common human unhappiness’)” The people who invented and use such labels like “OCD” to ‘diagnose’ various
aspects of the human condition can only endeavour to ameliorate the symptoms, if that, but fail to diagnose, let
alone treat, the root cause of the problem itself – the instinctual imperative common to all feeling beings. And
the cute thing is that the solution to the human condition, an actual freedom, has been “classified as a ‘severe
psychotic condition’ in the DSM-IV” by those very same professionals. I am well pleased to hear that “applying the “it doesn’t really matter basis” to more and more things […] has caused some more ease and enjoyment”. CHRONO: This past week I went camping with my partner for the holiday and I noticed that she likes things in a very organized and specific way before she can relax. Otherwise she ends up becoming anxious or antsy. And that caused some frustration on my end as I prefer to do things in a leisurely way. But I saw that that was her way of being and that’s how she deals with it. She also does not readily share how she feels when experiencing a negative feeling as she needs time to process her feelings or she just keeps them bottled inside unless I really ask her. The sour vibe that stems from this causes anxiety on my end as it triggers my urgency to “fix” it. But I’ve already stated my preference to be open about feelings and/or talk through them. And only recently did I see that I’ve been adding fuel to the fire by going along with this way of being. It has been my main obstacle to feeling good now as I feel it to the core. Perhaps all of this is the very instinctual seriousness in action. So putting this on a “it doesn’t really matter basis” has been a huge help. Richard’s quote at the end highlights that I seem to lose sight of this fact of death and thus make everything serious. VINEETO: Feeling being ‘Vineeto’ noticed early into ‘her’ investigations into male-female relationships that men have the instinctual inclination to fix a problem when presented to them, while females are more instinctually inclined to want sympathy and understanding for their emotional problems (reaffirming ‘me’) rather than solving them. The only solution actualism has to offer is dissolution, in other words to become autonomous, so that a near-actual intimacy can ensue. Here are some experiential reports –
I also found a fitting description from Devika in Richard’s Journal –
CHRONO: Also related, I saw in action how I create ripples by even wanting to share how I feel about my anxiety to her because it in turn activates some feeling for her. Even the very desire to share it is self-centric because if I’m being honest, the main reason I want to share is so that she will alleviate it through some commiseration. It does seem like the center of what a relationship is. But that never eliminates the original feeling. Only covers it up. And I realized that by trying to seek solace in this way, I end up reinforcing my way of being and also contributing to negative vibes. VINEETO: How right you are – you create/ feed/ multiply those negative feelings and their accompanying vibes by ‘sharing’ – a word highly valued in modern social circles – unless you share delight and appreciation. *
CHRONO: What I take away from this is how “death was my constant companion; an ever-present reminder that to die without having ever lived fully as in totally fulfilled, completely satisfied, utterly content – was such a waste of a life”. Which perspective seems to be the key. VINEETO: The propinquity of death is indeed a sobering reminder, whenever you allow it, with the capacity to cut through every subterfuge ‘I’ contrive to stay in existence. But it is also an exquisite reminder how immensely precious an actual freedom from the human condition is. * VINEETO: The desire for immortality certainly relates to the “Tried and Failed”, but it also relates to the instinctual programming to survive at any cost and the fact that ‘I’/ ‘me’ have usurped the role of this body’s keeper. Here is a fascinating insight from Richard on the origin of the universal belief in ‘my’ immortality – (…) CHRONO: Ah yes that makes sense that the “Tried and Failed” itself is a function of the instinctual programming. I remember reading that fascinating quote and it reminded me of the book “The Selfish Gene” but at the time I had never thought of ‘me’ as being the very genetic memory. As for dread, I find that it’s the looking away from that feeling which makes it churn. But I also don’t know how to stop looking away. VINEETO: Denying, pushing away or fighting fear in any way including being afraid of being afraid always adds fuel to the feeling of fear or dread. Look for the thrill. Here is a little story –
* VINEETO: It is indeed “all-encompassing” and has not just “seeped” in – spirituality is part and parcel of being a ‘being’ because ‘being’ itself is not actual and as such ‘you’ are ‘a spirit being’, so to speak. (…)
CHRONO: It’s very interesting how one can be this spirit being while also denying one is a spirit being. Perhaps some self-survival strategy. I realized this was also the issue with the Buddhist ‘no-self’ crowd. They equate ‘no-self’ with there being no spirit while denying that they are that very spirit which is doing the looking. Once again, all eyes off ‘me’. Richard’s whole exposition of modern and ancient Buddhism was a real eye opener. There is a useful word for it – cognitive dissonance An ever-increasing attentiveness will eventually sweep out all dark corners of one’s psyche and make cognitive dissonance redundant so that naiveté can flourish.
* CHRONO: So I decided to turn away from following my usual way of being about intimacy. And I was simply allowing a “what if?”. Like just suspending ‘my’ path temporarily just to see. Then my eyes were seeing into the softness of being here. I became aware of that sweetness. This sweetness was not directional as if for one person. It was here for everyone. It was markedly different from the usual way of being intimate. It didn’t have to be on a special occasion. It’s always here. I am wondering now if I could always be like this. What’s standing in the way? VINEETO: Ah, this is delicious – it’s the very sweetness of the imminence of pure intent
(see Actualvineeto, Articles, Sweetness CHRONO: I am still reading through this correspondence but I always thought it interesting that words like sweetness, delicious, and ambrosial are used as they seem to be words related to taste or smell. But I see they could be related to “delight”. Initially I couldn’t understand what the word sweetness meant because I can only relate it to tasting something sweet. Also I relate very much with what you wrote here:
Although this was after you became actually free, I’ve had a few
experiences which I would describe with the exact same words used here. Another word that came to mind was
“precious” or “preciosity”. VINEETO: This sweetness was mainly experienced by feeling being ‘Vineeto’, especially during ‘her’ out-from-control period and later when I endeavoured to become fully free. It is the pure intent – experienced as “an actually occurring stream of benevolence and benignity that originates in the vast and utter stillness that is the essential character of the universe itself”. It is tangible when you experience that you are not alone in this adventure of a lifetime. Follow this ambrosial sweetness and you can’t go wrong. And as Kuba recently said –
When you say “precious” I am instantly reminded of my all-time favourite piece of writing in Richard’s Journal –
Whereas the fervent feeling of one’s ‘precious’ identity is a mere, and troublesome, bauble by comparison.
VINEETO: The people who invented and use such labels like “OCD” to ‘diagnose’
various aspects of the human condition can only endeavour to ameliorate the symptoms, if that, but fail to diagnose,
let alone treat, the root cause of the problem itself – the instinctual imperative common to all feeling beings.
And the cute thing is that the solution to the human condition, an actual freedom, has been “classified as a ‘severe
psychotic condition’ in the DSM-IV” by those very same professionals. I am well pleased to hear that “applying the “it doesn’t really matter basis” to more and more things […] has caused some more ease and enjoyment”. CHRONO: Hi Vineeto, Yes I did seem to have some remnant ways of looking and approaching to my feelings from prior conditioning. But I can honestly say that I have found that my life has improved much more with the actualism approach than in my entire lifetime of approaching it thru the lens of psychology and spirituality. VINEETO: Hi Chrono, It is very understandable that you “have some remnant ways of looking and approaching to my feelings from prior conditioning”. This will be the case until every bit of conditioning is recognized as such and put aside, so to speak. And every time you recognize and acknowledge that you are better off and that your “life has improved much more with the actualism approach”, it gives you confidence that the direction you have chosen is well worthwhile pursuing. * CHRONO: This past week I went camping with my partner for the holiday and I noticed that she likes things in a very organized and specific way before she can relax. Otherwise she ends up becoming anxious or antsy. And that caused some frustration on my end as I prefer to do things in a leisurely way. But I saw that that was her way of being and that’s how she deals with it. She also does not readily share how she feels when experiencing a negative feeling as she needs time to process her feelings or she just keeps them bottled inside unless I really ask her. The sour vibe that stems from this causes anxiety on my end as it triggers my urgency to “fix“ it. But I’ve already stated my preference to be open about feelings and/or talk through them. And only recently did I see that I’ve been adding fuel to the fire by going along with this way of being. It has been my main obstacle to feeling good now as I feel it to the core. Perhaps all of this is the very instinctual seriousness in action. So putting this on a “it doesn’t really matter basis” has been a huge help. Richard’s quote at the end highlights that I seem to lose sight of this fact of death and thus make everything serious. VINEETO: (…) The only solution actualism has to offer is dissolution, in other words to become autonomous, so that a near-actual intimacy can ensue. (…) CHRONO: Also related, I saw in action how I create ripples by even wanting to share how I feel about my anxiety to her because it in turn activates some feeling for her. Even the very desire to share it is self-centric because if I’m being honest, the main reason I want to share is so that she will alleviate it through some commiseration. It does seem like the centre of what a relationship is. But that never eliminates the original feeling. Only covers it up. And I realized that by trying to seek solace in this way, I end up reinforcing my way of being and also contributing to negative vibes. VINEETO: How right you are – you create/ feed/ multiply those negative feelings and their accompanying vibes by ‘sharing’ – a word highly valued in modern social circles – unless you share delight and appreciation. CHRONO: I can see now that’s the only way (dissolution) thru this relationship dynamic as no other solution works in regards to peace and harmony. I am ready to ‘lay down my arms’ so to speak. Unilaterally cutting this cord as ‘Vineeto’ had done. I initially likened it to breaking up with them without breaking up with them, but it helps me more to frame it in the way of seeing that by being her ‘boyfriend’ or trying to have her be my ‘girlfriend’ prevents intimacy (which irony I find pretty funny). Once again I am seeing that it is the ‘Good’ that keeps the ‘Bad’ alive. By aiming to gain that “security” of the relationship, I am keeping ‘my’ loneliness and separation alive. And to break it down further, I am trying to gain that “security” instinctually via my male conditioning as you had described of giving solutions to my partner only so that it will provide me the emotional comfort of a “stable” relationship. It has nothing to with seeing her as a fellow human being. VINEETO: Again, the key is to recognize the traditional way in action, reinforced by your feelings, and then, consciously and deliberatively – with knowledge aforethought – declining oh-so-sensibly to futilely go down that well-trodden path to nowhere fruitful yet again, and try something new, more naïve and playful, or even doing nothing for a while. You will notice that the moment you stop putting pressure on yourself and on your partner to force a solution, it becomes easier to feel good, the dynamic changes, and you can let a sensible course of action prevail. There is a lot of information to be gained, and confirmation for what works and what doesn’t, when you apply attentiveness to how you behave and feel. There is a lot of information to be gained, and confirmation for what works and what doesn’t, when you apply attentiveness to how you behave and feel. It is, after all, the unravelling of a life-long programming plus conditioning, which you are undertaking, and you get better and better at it – you eventually can come to see it as fun puzzles you are solving. As you said to Josef –
* VINEETO: Denying, pushing away or fighting fear in any way including being afraid of being afraid always adds fuel to the feeling of fear or dread. Look for the thrill. Here is a little story – (snipped) CHRONO: I can relate very well to being afraid of being afraid and to delve into the fear as that’s my main issue. I’ve been looking for the thrill on the bottom-left hand side as Richard suggests but can’t seem to find it (joking haha). I’m ready to embrace it as an adventure on the next occurrence. VINEETO: At first, the fear seems insurmountable and you back away. But each time you gain some more insight (perhaps the thrill is the right-top corner, or down the middle?) and you dare to go a little further and gather more confidence each time you dare. * CHRONO: It’s very interesting how one can be this spirit being while also denying one is a spirit being. Perhaps some self-survival strategy. I realized this was also the issue with the Buddhist ‘no-self’ crowd. They equate ‘no-self’ with there being no spirit while denying that they are that very spirit which is doing the looking. Once again, all eyes off ‘me’. Richard’s whole exposition of modern and ancient Buddhism was a real eye opener. VINEETO: There is a useful word for it – cognitive dissonance An ever-increasing attentiveness will eventually sweep out all dark corners of one’s psyche and make cognitive dissonance redundant so that naiveté can flourish. CHRONO: When I reflect on it, it seems as if ‘my’ whole existence is one giant cognitive dissonance. Something that I do not want to see or acknowledge. VINEETO: Here is a pertinent quote from a long conversation Richard had with a someone concerned about sanity and insanity –
And from the same conversation further down –
Feeling being ‘Vineeto’ found this whole topic of sanity, insanity and salubriousness * CHRONO: (…) I relate very much with what you wrote here:
(…) CHRONO: I experienced it again when I saw that I want to feel good for the rest of my life. It’s so much better than being anything else. I’ve been trying to see how to allow more of it. But each time I “try” to, it has the opposite effect. I am still reading the correspondence and have more to write but I will have to come back to it. VINEETO: This is excellent and the best you can experience as a feeling being. It is the stream of benignity and benevolence of pure intent streaming in. To “try” is to be exerting control, and pure intent cannot be forced, only invited and allowed to live your life.
A great report of incremental success.
CHRONO: It has been a while since I’ve written here and it’s mainly because I had fallen back to feeling bad. Or more specifically it’s because I’ve had a lot of trouble sleeping/ have been sleep deprived and have, in the last couple of weeks, got back to getting all my rest and feeling good. Right now it feels like so long ago that I can’t even remember all the details, but I will comment that it relates to my “OCD” way of being (I am only calling it that because I don’t have another word). It morphs and latches onto various things in order to gain certainty. Maybe the instinctual urgency way of being as mentioned above. I’m inclined to even say that it is bordering on an altered state of consciousness. I can say though that it started with the whole stonewalling issue with my partner. And the primary feeling it engendered in me was feeling “trapped”. I felt that I had to solve the issue or else we won’t be able to enjoy our time together. VINEETO: Hi Chrono, First up, I would suggest that instead of using the psychiatric definition “OCD” (which only categorizes/ defines you as having a mental disorder), naming what you experience ‘symptoms of extreme stress’. This usually happens when the underlying feeling of stress and anxiety is not allowed to be experienced as is (as in ‘I’ am my feelings and my feelings are ‘me’). If you do that you can instantly tell what is missing and do something about it via addressing the issue directly – when you are back to feeling good. You clearly identified the source of your stress and anxiety – love. Perhaps revisiting our
previous conversations on this topic might be informative, which you can find (together with other correspondence
here
CHRONO: Except as time went by and I didn’t do anything, it was as if the issue solved itself. There was no real issue and I found that it again had to do with the Good/ Bad dichotomy. There had been a dream (self-centric) functioning that only if my partner behaved or acted a certain way then there could be peace and harmony between us (something along those lines). Now any time I note that I am bothered in this way then I know that I have a “good” belief functioning in the background. The question then was, was it worth holding onto that (good) dream if it meant feeling miserable and simultaneously disregarding my partner as a full person on her own (being but an accessory to ‘my’ dream)? I could not have the one without the other. And I got my genuine answer of ‘no the good is not worth the bad’. Only then did that state of being release its grip. VINEETO: You were hot on the trail and have also identified the issue further, originally wanting to keep the cake and eat it too, i.e. keeping love/ possession without the detrimental side-effects (“the Good/ Bad dichotomy”). Perhaps this has finally been fully recognized and has expired? Either way it is a really excellent outcome and your persistent probing showed results. When you examine your resentment, make sure that not a smidgen of wanting to hold onto the bitter-sweet feeling love remains, otherwise your resentment is sourced in the fact (which you have already seen) that you can’t have one without the other. CHRONO: Another thing which seems to be at the heart of that instinctual urgency is disregarding the fact of ‘I am my feelings and my feelings are me’. One thing that’s very clear to me is how important being genuine and honest is. Otherwise nothing happens. If I’m going in circles, it’s because I’m not being genuine and honest. I can only get to being my feelings with full honesty. Only then I’m not fighting against myself. But I had seen these things before so why do I keep falling back? Maybe attentiveness had become lax. How can feeling good become a solid foundation? Or rather how can I genuinely commit to feeling good forever? All of this does come under one header and I can’t believe how often this theme comes up, but it’s resentment. I was reading this interesting correspondence:
CHRONO: As I walked along with those words, I experienced it in
myself. Any dreaming or desiring to being away in some other place and some other time is an expression of the
resentment of being alive. The reason that the good/ bad feelings are being supported is because those dreams sit
atop this foundation of resentment. I can see it very clearly now. I have noted it before but I did not realize how
deep it goes. It is reinforced by everyone. Now I can see it more easily in its occurrence. With the declining of
this resentment and saying that yes to being alive at this moment, my only interest is in experiencing things as they
actually are. I know that this has been the issue because the moment I noticed it and decided to want to be here, the
other issues were as if they didn’t exist and I felt good.
VINEETO: This is excellent. You will see how radically your life changes as you incrementally recognize each dream and dismantle the underlying resentment that things are not as ‘I’ want them to be. I guess you already read Kuba’s report on his experiential discovery of the all-encompassing resentment (link). When one sets one’s priority to imitate the actual, resentment has no place to hide in the shadows. And what a marvellous trade is that – the result is way beyond your wildest dreams.
VINEETO: First up, I would suggest that instead of using the psychiatric definition “OCD” (which only categorizes/ defines you as having a mental disorder), naming what you experience ‘symptoms of extreme stress’. This usually happens when the underlying feeling of stress and anxiety is not allowed to be experienced as is (as in ‘I’ am my feelings and my feelings are ‘me’). If you do that you can instantly tell what is missing and do something about it via addressing the issue directly – when you are back to feeling good. CHRONO: Hi Vineeto, Yes that makes sense to re-label it. I’ve been calling it that as the symptoms very much fit the definition. Obsessively focused on one thing and trying to compulsively fix it (while holding onto the same feeling) is an instinctual manoeuvre. But my approach to it has changed. I noticed that I just need to let the feeling subside (seeing that there’s nothing that I have to really do) and feel good and that quells the majority of the urgency. I saw this when I realized that my fundamental nature is not only that ‘I am suffering and suffering is me’ but also that ‘my’ whole foundational drive is to survive. Thus I am heavily invested in suffering. It makes sense that feeling good then is a self-less inclination. VINEETO: Hi Chrono, Ah, this sounds like a break-through realisation into the whole business of being “heavily invested in suffering”. Now that you have seen that you can pay attention to every instant when that habitual behaviour resurfaces and attentiveness will take care of the rest –
* VINEETO: You were hot on the trail and have also identified the issue further, originally wanting to keep the cake and eat it too, i.e. keeping love/ possession without the detrimental side-effects (“the Good/ Bad dichotomy”). Perhaps this has finally been fully recognized and has expired? Either way it is a really excellent outcome and your persistent probing showed results. When you examine your resentment, make sure that not a smidgen of wanting to hold onto the bitter-sweet feeling love remains, otherwise your resentment is sourced in the fact (which you have already seen) that you can’t have one without the other. CHRONO: Yes I am now on the lookout for any good feelings that I may be wanting or holding onto if I should feel bad. What’s interesting is how rather continuous it is. Times when I may not have been aware before or considered moments of feeling ‘normal’ are actually of feeling bad. And any feelings of bitter-sweetness are an indication that a cherished dream is on the line. Seeing how I cannot have the good without the bad has made a big dent in the way I approach it. I previously did resent that I could not “keep the cake and eat it too” although I hadn’t quite caught on what was happening. I think this highlights a huge belief in Humanity that it is somehow possible. Now it’s a matter of becoming aware of these feelings and just asking if I want to hold onto a particular dream or attitude if it meant that I would also have to keep the bad parts of it. VINEETO: It takes a while to become aware that both ‘good’ and bad feelings are two sides of the same coin. With practice, your attentiveness gets finer and more precise, and one becomes aware of one belief after another. It’s fun, isn’t it. CHRONO: I don’t resent that I can’t have the one without the other but I do feel a sense of being inconsiderate. But I had some insight into that this past week as well. I had a big argument with my partner regarding my usage of the term ‘introvert’ with her. I had told my friend that she is an ‘introvert’. I did not realize that this was something that bothered her a lot and that she had some insecurities around it. It seemed like not a big deal at all but to her it was. During the argument I was quite taken aback and I insisted that perhaps she is looking at it or approaching it in an improper way. This was basically the whole argument of ‘it’s not what you said but how you said it’. And it was when I was going to sleep I realized that it’s not a matter of if something made sense or not. It’s because I held onto this ideal of being ‘logical’ that I insisted and defended my way of seeing it. It was self-centered of me to disregard her feelings regarding this issue whether it made sense or not. I realize that being ‘logical’ is some big part of being a ‘man’. A ‘man’ is logical and a ‘woman’ is illogical (or so it goes). But being logical or illogical does not bring about peace and harmony. I could only be considerate by dropping more of these parts of ‘me’. She is free to be however she wants to be or feel. VINEETO: I remember ‘Vineeto’ at first being surprised to learn that Richard said he
was not a fan of logic CHRONO: I also noticed another ideal of being ‘open’ in the relationship that I held onto. It seemed nice on the surface, however it seemed to be a license to be ‘myself’ and ultimately disregard the other. I am left wondering what is there in relationship without all this? There’s a strange feeling of blandness remaining. And again I see that thinking itself is circumscribed by it being either ‘good’ or bad’. If it’s not ‘good’ then I automatically I assume that it’s ‘bad’. Perhaps the question is, what is the third alternative? VINEETO: Indeed, some people call “being ‘open’” being honest and, as you discovered, use it as a license to rudely tell people how the feel – which unchecked is certainly not harmless. As I said to Sonya the other day –
Have you noticed that whenever you consider some attitude or ‘truth’ or belief no longer worthwhile holding onto, you instantly present yourself with the opposite as negative as possible to prevent ‘you’ from straying off the ‘straight and narrow’ traditional path. There is of course nothing bland at all about having less and less ‘good’ and bad feelings – being happy and harmless are feelings of the, at times exuberant and vibrant, felicitous variety.
* CHRONO: As I walked along with those words, I experienced it in myself. Any dreaming or desiring to being away in some other place and some other time is an expression of the resentment of being alive. The reason that the good/ bad feelings are being supported is because those dreams sit atop this foundation of resentment. I can see it very clearly now. (…) VINEETO: This is excellent. You will see how radically your life changes as you
incrementally recognize each dream and dismantle the underlying resentment that things are not as ‘I’ want them
to be. I guess you already read Kuba’s report on his experiential discovery of the all-encompassing resentment CHRONO: I am just now reading it in full and I can relate to
it. However what stands in my way at the moment I think is this indignation at what people are doing. Like they are
crazy and I am not haha. It’s strange that I still have this belief. Rather embarrassing almost. I am seeing as I
am writing this, it’s the same thing that I was doing with my partner but now projected onto the rest of the world.
It’s ‘illogical’. ‘If only they would do this, if only they would think like this’. It’s rather funny
because sometimes I feel myself “well-adjusted” and other times feel that I am more crazy than the norm.
And I see a core again that it’s self-centered. At the core is the feeling of being special somehow. This must be
the identity that everyone feels themself to be as well. I feel a reluctance and resistance to seeing this entirely
for some reason. That it means that I have to face the Human Condition directly. It feels like I am stepping into the
“slums”. I’m not sure how to describe it. VINEETO: Ha, Kuba arrived at a similar indignation, describing it in his last post This attitude is indeed born of ‘self’-centredness and ‘me’ defending ‘my’ very existence, as you might feel yourself to be the only one doing something about the mess ‘you’ are and yet know yourself to operate outside the norm of the human condition in many areas. That’s the pioneer’s role and you can rather be appreciative to have the opportunity and the courage to do so. I also recommend reading Richard’s Selected Correspondence on Peasant Mentality
CHRONO: Hi Vineeto, I’ve given another read to
I’ve noticed that this occurs to a greater degree when I am able to see that this moment is the only moment of being alive. It is ‘me’ which seems to give the feeling of existing over time. Good and bad feelings block this awareness while felicitous feelings allow it to a greater degree. VINEETO: Hi Chrono Indeed, even though it is natural and often unavoidable that feelings are blocking this kind of awareness most of the time, it is very perspicacious to notice it – one needs to experience it enough when it’s not happening in order to see the pattern. CHRONO: Another thing that I had been doing unwittingly at times is confusing attentiveness with intuition. That is, there will be a feeling that wants to be expressed and I experience it as a visceral squirming and end up giving in. But:
VINEETO: An excellent observation – intuition is a feeling commentary, whereas attentiveness is much more observant, even when observing one’s feelings in action. The above quote from Richard is one of my favourite passages but I’ll cut it short – this post is getting far too long already. CHRONO: I notice that there’s actually a belief with this way of being in that, to be sincere in the real world is to be “true to one’s feelings” or “being honest” as mentioned already. Which in turn means to be expressing that feeling and so one is said to be being honest with oneself. Which then goes hand in hand with accepting that is “who you are”. And again in turn that acceptance is due to the belief that “you can’t change human nature”. Thus insincerity is being consistently fortified by everyone. I have in the past beat myself up for getting angry in some way because that is “bad”. But now I see more that this being angry and the subsequent judgement (along with many other feelings) is actually what it means to be sane and normal. VINEETO: Ha, you said it well. I had several conversations with Syd about this. “Being true to one’s feelings” mostly implies to value and express those feelings, whilst “being honest” often involves, and justifies, expressing malice. Don’t you find it more and more fortuitous that you are not as “sane and normal” anymore as when you started out on the actualist adventure? * VINEETO: It takes a while to become aware that both ‘good’ and bad feelings are two sides of the same coin. With practice, your attentiveness gets finer and more precise, and one becomes aware of one belief after another. It’s fun, isn’t it. CHRONO: It is indeed fun when I forgo all real world methods! VINEETO: Indeed – they would only corrupt and confuse the process of thinning out the identity while having fun and appreciating. * VINEETO: I remember ‘Vineeto’ at first being surprised to learn that Richard said he
was not a fan of logic CHRONO: Yes I notice that much of logic is ultimately based on beliefs. It “makes sense” in the world of imagination. VINEETO: Well, I wouldn’t call it “based on beliefs” as such, even though some of it is. Logic has various meanings, and the definitions are rather confusing or even contradicting –
Hence I prefer to stay on side of common sense because the principles of logic can easily be misappropriated or deliberately perverted for ‘my’ purpose. They work for computers though (2nd meaning). * VINEETO: Have you noticed that whenever you consider some attitude or ‘truth’ or
belief no longer worthwhile holding onto, you instantly present yourself with the opposite as negative as possible to
prevent ‘you’ from straying off the ‘straight and narrow’ traditional path. CHRONO: I’ve noticed it on many occasions now and I can see how it is due to my drive to survive. ‘Good’ feelings and felicitous feelings both have pleasant hedonic tone. But one of the qualities of ‘good’ feelings that I recently noticed is that they feel more “heavy” and take over the mind unlike the felicitous feelings which are more light and carefree. Good feelings convey some imaginary ideal that may one day happen but felicitous feelings create a sparkling atmosphere of being here. Writing all of this out definitely brings more clarity and seems to help feeling good. VINEETO: Again, isn’t it amazing that pointing your attention (attentiveness) to one specific aspect of the human condition, with pure intent operating) reveals the very nature of the underlying feeling and structure and you gradually cease believing in the repeated expressions of ‘your’ “drive to survive”. * VINEETO: Ha, Kuba arrived at a similar indignation, describing it in his last post This attitude is indeed born of ‘self’-centredness and ‘me’ defending ‘my’ very existence, as you might feel yourself to be the only one doing something about the mess ‘you’ are and yet know yourself to operate outside the norm of the human condition in many areas. That’s the pioneer’s role and you can rather be appreciative to have the opportunity and the courage to do so. I also recommend reading Richard’s Selected Correspondence on Peasant Mentality CHRONO: That feeling features a lot more nowadays. I can relate to the post and to the feeling of: I’ve mentioned before how at times I imagine some scenario where
those who are in power get punished severely due to the “rigged system” that they create and perpetuate. I
gave the Peasant Mentality
VINEETO: You are aware that there are two sides to a power structure – those who take power and those who give it willingly in order to benefit from their obedience and loyalty. While I understand your imagination of punishing those in power, it is important to acknowledge that you are as much part creating and perpetuating “the rigged system”, as long as the peasant mentality operates in you. Not that the ‘system’ will disappear when you step out of it but you will no longer be plagued by the lack of justice and fairness. Especially loyalty, the hallmark of ‘peasant mentality’, is worth looking at (See CHRONO: But I have been becoming more aware of where I feel a resentment of having to work at all. Then as I am reflecting on it now, I feel that the resentment is due to the feeling of “being prisoned”. Maybe this impression of a place where I do not feel prisoned (and thus free from the horrors of what I feel the world as) is the fundamental franchise. But I’m not entirely sure. The furthest back this feeling goes is from living with my family as a child. At that time I felt the feeling of being prisoned most acutely as physical and emotional abuse featured a lot both from parental figures, teachers, and other children. It was then that I started imagining that maybe I could be somewhere else. It was the whole reason for my incursion into spirituality. The idea that I could actually be somewhere else appealed to me a lot because that meant the end of those horrors. It was by serendipity that I encountered actualism. I am giving more thought to what it means to enable the ‘already always existing peace on earth’. Anyways as I read further on that correspondence:
As this is something that many have seen and noted already, there must be something further. I feel an anger towards those people and almost feel that they are the ones perpetuating the wars, murders, etc. It is at this point where I feel that indignation more deeply. I feel myself to be not in support of the system due to this and can see my indignant reaction is a form of rebelling (a case of reaching for the opposite). What I’m coming closer towards though is perhaps seeing that there is no solution (as in even rebelling is pointless in regards to solving the system ultimately). VINEETO: For a start, to expect to be fed and housed without working is setting yourself up for certain disappointment. It would mean someone else would have to provide for you. So, the “resentment of having to work at all” is possibly a leftover from when you were a child, as well as “the feeling of being prisoned”. I am reminded of this snippet from Richard’s personal web-page regarding childhood hurts, which you might find informative –
You see, all the childhood hurts can disappear within the blink of an eye, allowing the penetrating insight that you can never ever be a child again to let all the resent go at once. Then adult sensibility can work out the best solution. Regarding the “rigged system”, when you comprehensively understand how the peasant mentality is operating in you, then you’ll find it impossible to apportion blame because you can see that everybody is trapped by either loyalty and obedience, fuelled by their wanting to get ahead, or by excessive avarice, driven to accumulate regardless of the consequences. Yes, the system is rigged, but within the human condition every system would be equally rigged by whoever gets to the top because everyone is endowed with the same instinctual passions. There is truly no solution within the human condition. The key is to unilaterally become happy and harmless, enjoying and appreciating, and as Richard says –
CHRONO: Still reading this and will have to reflect on it:
VINEETO: Let me know if/when it works for you.
VINEETO: Indeed, even though it is natural and often unavoidable that feelings are blocking this kind of awareness most of the time, it is very perspicacious to notice it – one needs to experience it enough when it’s not happening in order to see the pattern. VINEETO: An excellent observation – intuition is a feeling commentary, whereas attentiveness is much more observant, even when observing one’s feelings in action. The above quote from Richard is one of my favourite passages but I’ll cut it short – this post is getting far too long already. CHRONO: Something which seems to take me out of the way I usually operate and indulge in is seeing that I am feeling some particular feeling and it seems all the while this moment is happening. It’s like, why would I want to feel bad (or antidotally good) when this moment is happening irregardless? At one point the thought occurred to me “how could any of this be happening without ‘me’?”. It seemed almost disconcerting like there’s a deep feeling of ‘I’ am needed. My mind boggles at the ramifications of the universe happening on its own. VINEETO: Ha, you said it well. I had several conversations with Syd about this. “Being true to one’s feelings” mostly implies to value and express those feelings, whilst “being honest” often involves, and justifies, expressing malice. Don’t you find it more and more fortuitous that you are not as “sane and normal” anymore as when you started out on the actualist adventure? CHRONO: Yes as I was on the road to being insane and abnormal otherwise haha. VINEETO: Hi Chrono, I took the liberty to split your post in half as all the topics raised merit responding to. Given you raised the topic of “on the road to being insane and abnormal” – I
highly recommend Richard’s two Selected Correspondences on Sanity, Insanity
and the Third Alternative
* VINEETO: I remember ‘Vineeto’ at first being surprised to learn that Richard said he was not a fan of logic or being logical. ‘Vineeto’ had considered logic to be ‘her’ thinking process (when ‘she’ wasn’t being emotional) – if this, then that. However, the more ‘she’ paid attention when applying common sense, ‘she’ came to see that common sense is much more than following the fixed rules of logic but rather choosing what is sensible. ‘I’, the identity, can easily play tricks with logic, it being a rigid system, but with attentiveness one becomes aware of the underlying feelings and thus comes to one’s senses (common sense – down-to-earth facts and actuality – included). CHRONO: Yes I notice that much of logic is ultimately based on beliefs. It “makes sense” in the world of imagination. VINEETO: Well, I wouldn’t call it “based on beliefs” as such, even though some of it is. Logic has various meanings, and the definitions are rather confusing or even contradicting –
Hence I prefer to stay on side of common sense because the principles of logic can easily be misappropriated or deliberately perverted for ‘my’ purpose. They work for computers though (2nd meaning). CHRONO: Ah yes I can I see I was being sloppy with my writing and will try to refer to the dictionary definitions. The word logic seems to me to be co-opted. The reason I had phrased it as such was because I have heard the word ‘logical’ being used a few times by people (including me) to describe themselves and show how their way of thinking is “superior” to others who are being “illogical” via following their feelings or utilizing intuition. But nonetheless both are circumscribed by ‘me’. VINEETO: You weren’t necessarily sloppy because this is the way you “have heard the word ‘logical’ being used” being the common understanding, and this kind of ‘logic’ has a high currency as being “superior”. It is nevertheless not all it’s made out to be because logic is very often used to just win an argument, or ‘prove’ something nonsensical or non-beneficial, and it is, as you say, “circumscribed by ‘me’”. As such I prefer the word sensible, which is more comprehensive to describe a way of thinking governed by common sense and rationality, not depending on one’s feelings, when seeking to find a beneficial conclusion for all concerned according to the facts. * VINEETO: Again, isn’t it amazing that pointing your attention (attentiveness) to one specific aspect of the human condition, with pure intent operating) reveals the very nature of the underlying feeling and structure, and you gradually cease believing in the repeated expressions of ‘your’ “drive to survive”. CHRONO: Yes and I find that the genuine intent to be happy and
harmless is very key. Actually I’m feeling very good right now as I write this and I chose to feel good. VINEETO: It is a delight to hear you say that “the genuine intent to be happy and harmless is very key”. It is indeed the key, and remembering to add appreciation will open the world of naiveté to you, where you can marvel and be amazed by, to the point of it taking your breath away.
VINEETO: (…) Regarding the “rigged system”, when you comprehensively understand how the peasant mentality is operating in you, then you’ll find it impossible to apportion blame because you can see that everybody is trapped by either loyalty and obedience, fuelled by their wanting to get ahead, or by excessive avarice, driven to accumulate regardless of the consequences. Yes, the system is rigged, but within the human condition every system would be equally rigged by whoever gets to the top because everyone is endowed with the same instinctual passions. There is truly no solution within the human condition. CHRONO: In regards the feeling of ‘being prisoned’, I notice that it activates more so when it feels like others are mad or not in a good mood around me. Perhaps that does more relate to childhood hurts or to being a victim. Actually I notice a common thread underneath all this is that there’s a feeling as if someone is making me feel bad or forcing me to. And maybe that was the case when I was a child that I took all of those hurts into myself uncritically but now I can just choose to feel good irregardless of what others feel. VINEETO: Hi Chrono, I deleted a lot of the previous post so this one doesn’t get too long. As a child you have had
no other choice as to take “all of those hurts into myself uncritically” or unsuccessfully rebel. It
is excellent that you now “I can just choose to feel good irregardless of what others feel”. You are
probably aware that you as a feeling being live within a psychic web CHRONO: For the feeling of resentment at having to work at all, I do have the belief in an ideal operating [society] where with more and more work being automated then that should be freeing up people to have more free time instead. Again seems to go back to it being ‘unfair’ that the ‘few’ reap the rewards of that automation and the ‘many’ suffer. But now as I think on it, that feeling is not factually true. Here I can see that I am identifying again with the ‘many’ and all that that entails (resentment, indignation, obedience, etc). VINEETO: Well, you not only identify with the ‘many’ who suffer but you also describe/ imagine a compassionate ideal how society should be organized instead, for yourself and others. As each and everyone can only change one person, themselves, the only way you can actually do something beneficial is to change yourself and become free from the human condition for everyone’s benefit. As a suggestion – instead of only looking at the negative feelings of “resentment, indignation, obedience, etc” only, check out which ‘good’ feelings keep this resentment in place. There could be compassion, which you alleviate with virtuous high morals/ethics, and/or the feeling of belonging to the ‘many’ who suffer. Perhaps you find some other ‘brownie points’ which presently keep you trapped. I am reminded of the brilliant way Richard parsed compassion in two of the Audio-taped Dialogues –
This is certainly thinking outside of the box! The other sequence on compassion starts here –
CHRONO: I can also see how there seems to be the feeling that one would “escape” that rigged system by trying to become one of the ‘few’. So the belief operating is that only the ‘few’ have what the many are disfranchised from. And even further to that, the feeling is that by being at the top, I would be able to somehow evince an equitable society (which quest for equity in regards everyone and myself has become more clear for me as one of the main driving factors for an actual freedom). But this comes to mind:
VINEETO: Yes, this is an excellent quote to demonstrate that there is no intrinsic value in climbing to the top of the social ladder other than doing something to have enough to provide for life’s necessities. And once you eliminate/ abandon the resentment of having to work, perhaps you start enjoying what you do for earning a living, so that enjoying and appreciating being alive is not interrupted every time you go to work. Here is a story I found in a tool-tip on Richard’s Personal web-page –
CHRONO: As I reflect on this it seems that it’s peasants [mentality] all the way to the top. I can see how what I feel and believe is nothing new. I am no special than the rest in this regard. This was very eye-opening now as I read it in regards the origins of that deeply held feeling of disfranchisement:
And further in the “tropical seashore tale”:
For now my mind is quiet, but will see what comes up. This would be life-changing if I could come up on it experientially:
VINEETO: Having the mind quiet the perfect start to eventually actualise the insights you gained. Give it some time to gestate and germinate – it is a big shift compared to your previous thinking. This theme has been bugging you for a long time. * CHRONO: Still reading this and will have to reflect on it:
VINEETO: Let me know if/when it works for you. CHRONO: I am reminded of this Spongebob episode VINEETO: Ah well, this comic-strip video is a very crude, and inaccurate, representation
of what Richard is talking about. Richard is not talking about physical violence as presented in that video. He is
referring to verbal affective (and psychic) insults, which are quite consequential in the real world to start a heavy
brawl or a never-ending feud or the massive sexual molestation/ harassment of women in public in Cologne, Germany, in
December 2010, originating from that giving offence/ taking offence phenomenon by a 26-year-old male street vendor of
fruit and vegetables in Sidi Bouzid, Tunisia and his ‘mates’, given him by a 45-year-old female municipal
official who (allegedly) made a slur against his deceased father, and more. (Further information if needed:
Here is some additional information on the meaning of “absorbing” insults. For instance, from the first tool-tip
in that above quote
And:
Freedom from the Human Condition – Happy and Harmless Vineeto’s & Richard’s Text ©The Actual
Freedom Trust: 1997-. All Rights Reserved.
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