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(List D refers to Richard’s List D
Vineeto’s Correspondence with Andrew on Discuss Actualism Forum
ANDREW: Wow. What I am considering as I read these post that are well above my “pay grade” is just
how much my naïveté was abused by the prevailing religion of my birth Situation… So there has always been an exhaustion in me. I am however very pleased to recognise this. 
VINEETO: Hi Andrew, While you contemplate “how much my naïveté was abused” it’s useful to remember that children’s naïveté is very closely linked to ignorance and gullibility, and this is precisely why it can and will be abused. In the now-adult mind most peoples initially have difficulty separating the one from another. Hence the sincere intent to imitate the actual (and not acting with impulsivity or licentiousness) is very important. The naïveté you want to allow now needs to be combined with felicitous and innocuous adult sensibilities (naïve but not gullible), only then can you enjoy and revel in it to the point of gay abandon.
The key to unlock naiveté is sincerity, naiveté being “that
intimate aspect of oneself that is usually kept hidden away for fear of seeming foolish (a simpleton) … it
is like being a child again but with adult sensibilities (wherein one can separate out the distinction between
being naïve and being gullible/ trusting).”
ANDREW: So, resurrecting a touch of that naïveté, I notice a recent development. It’s a calm approach to decision making. Where there is a warm type of “bored” calm. An almost concussed calm. As if I am totally conquered by whatever it is I was fighting against, and now there is a series of considerations. It’s enjoyable. There is no rush. Felt it many times recently. At the music store. VINEETO: That is excellent. You have already experienced that you don’t need to be at the ‘beck and call’ of your passions and feelings, you can keep your hands in your pockets until they subside and then consider again. You might discover and explore something similar to what Claudiu described in January this year –
Naïveté, whenever it pops out – because ‘you’ allow it – can be cherished and
appreciated and fully enjoyed – and it is infectious too. For fun and encouragement you can check out this message ANDREW: The question of actual freedom, and being someone who
may feel good through developing the ability to choose it, that is very interesting. VINEETO: Indeed, and the less you try to be someone but simply enjoy being here as happily and harmlessly as possible, the more it is happening of its own accord. Enjoy your childlike wonder with adult sensibilities. Cheers Vineeto
ANDREW: Thanks Vineeto! Very new to me. I like this quote from Claudiu. It’s been the ongoing investigation into music. That I am not special. I may have perhaps a talent, but that is far from unique. There is an old saying, there is nothing more common than the talented but unsuccessful. Which is the key for me to continue looking into this. It has been a hugely dominant force in my life, and in my father’s life. Understanding it, gently teases something out of me. How I hold on to this “special” talent. When, is it really there? Perhaps I do have an ear for music, and so? How is that anything different from someone born with the genetics to grow to 7 feet tall? It’s not anything that ‘I’ had anything to do with at all! I have been thinking a lot about music. How so much of it, if not the vast majority of it, is derived and contrived. Not in a negative sense, in the literal sense. It’s not unique, factually. For the most part. (…) VINEETO: Hi Andrew, This is fascinating, how an insight that “I am not special” has so many ramifications to ease the pressure of what you say has been an “obsession”, and now you are more at ease, more happy and naïvely curious as to what is going to happen next. That is something to truly appreciate. ANDREW: I never questioned anything like this. It was all about being an ‘artist’, whatever that was! Which I never actually was in anyway, but the fantasy was always there. As if I just had to take it seriously for a moment, and “poof!” Instant acclaim! hehe. It’s fun to give myself the space to smile at it all. Without animosity. It’s all
preference really! Some people are very found of a particular kind of music, for a certain time, and then another
kind! Just as my tastes have changed. VINEETO: Yes, this is what having preferences instead of passionate urges does – you can have smile, fun, you can explore your talent (or no talent), your tastes and you can play music instead of working on it. It doesn’t really matter. Music is for fun, pleasant to the ears and well worth enjoying and appreciating for the very amusement and delight. * VINEETO: Indeed, and the less you try to be someone but
simply enjoy being here as happily and harmlessly as possible, the more it is happening of its own accord. ANDREW: I didn’t read this properly. That is indeed it! The
less I try an ‘be’ anything, the more interesting things are. It’s not the fun in “questioning” per
se, it’s the fun in not having to “be” something at the end of the thought. As in, I can create music
without a snare on the backbeat if I like, and music of any sort at all, without defining myself. Simply, is it fun?
Playful? VINEETO: Ah, I am pleased you understood. Just as having preferences instead of passionate urges is a ‘self-less (or ‘self’-diminishing) inclination, so are the felicitous and innocuous feelings in contrast to the ‘good’ and ‘bad’ feelings. Have playful fun finding out even more of the benefits of this naïve approach. Cheers Vineeto
ANDREW: Thanks Vineeto. The last two nights I was tail-gated aggressively by other drivers. Deliberately, I didn’t move out of the way, as that would inconvenience me. Long story short, today, on the second occasion, I had the thought; “for everything I have learnt about the human condition, personality disorders, mental illnesses etc, why am I so surprised and angry that I would encounter this behaviour in life?” (…) I pondered this in my last part of my journey. Whilst still being tailgated through my neighbourhood and feeling the rage which, if pushed may well have resulted in violence, I thought, “would I die to set that body free from the ‘entity’ which is clearly causing that behaviour?” (to be clear, at no point was I breaking the law, driving slowly or otherwise “asking for this”. Technically I was over the speed limit, but under what is classed as an offence). I remembered my two closest friends. Very large muscular guys, far bigger than average. Both capable of dominating most people if needed, but both are deeply thoughtful men. I thought of these same sized men (it’s usually men being aggressive on the freeway), men who obviously “back themselves” in a confrontation were it to come to that, and I saw what it would mean for every “body” to be free. No one would ever be afraid, and no one ever using physical size and capacity against anyone. Would I ‘self sacrifice’ to potentially set these aggressive male drivers free? Yes, I would. I can see that it was always such an obvious thing to do. VINEETO: Hi Andrew, A less radical way of proceeding – until you are ready to fully agree to self-immolation to happen – I can recommend to emotionally accept what is intellectually unacceptable in conjunction with putting everything on a preference basis –
Cheers Vineeto
ANDREW: So… Haha, I always love to open with “So”. How is it, that such innocence can be the carrier of such destruction? VINEETO: Hi Andrew, What innocence? Do you genuinely believe that babies are born innocent – especially after your
previous insight on guilt?
More information at Richard’s Selected Correspondence on Innocence Perhaps some taking advantage of the vast amount of information, freely available on the Actual Freedom Trust website, would be beneficial before you squander your time and energy on having feelings about theories and beliefs that are far from factual? ANDREW: For context, and to avoid my historical habit of being cryptic and mysterious; my otherwise cheerful, adventurous, and caring mother, has carried and passed on all the horrors of the human condition. Just as every mother and father in all of history has done. Wow. What a betrayal! Each of us, grown in the innocence of ignorance and being completely new to being alive at all,
carry on this utter insanity! VINEETO: Again, as ignorance is not innocence, there was no “betrayal” to be outraged or indignant about – “every mother and father in all of history” have been genetically endowed with instinctual passions and furnished with social conditioning and passed this on to the next generation, just as you have done with your own children. It’s worth contemplating from this angle –
Cheers Vineeto
VINEETO to Adam-H: Ha, it sounds like a terrible chore the way you put it “I have
to actually be felicitous and innocuous” – don’t make it into a moral doctrine or precept
to be obeyed else it gets corrupted into a tool to keep you miserable. ANDREW: This is what I understand to be the difference between actuality / the condition-less enjoyment of being alive, and ‘being’ as the ‘human condition’; each moment of ‘being’ is a trial, a test, a do or die ultimatum. It’s never anything but a trudging battle against the obvious inevitability of failure. VINEETO: Hi Andrew, If for you “each moment of ‘being’ is a trial”, “a trudging battle against the obvious inevitability of failure”, as it apparently was a decade ago when you wrote the memorable sentence “I gird myself for battle every morning”, isn’t it high time to locate this belief (truth) and closely examine it so that you can do something about it, i.e. abandon it for good? Nobody but you forces you to be either a warrior or a failure. When you sincerely recognize that ‘you’ are your feelings and your feelings are ‘you’, you have the choice to be a more felicitous and innocuous feeling and decline to continue being resentful. For instance, you can locate your basic resentment of being alive on this wonderful green and
azure planet and recognize, from the depth of your ‘being’ that it is a pathetic ANDREW: I woke this morning with the feeling of acute
anxiety in my chest. Later in the day it occurred to me that there was no such thing as “anxiety in my
chest”. That my heart may indeed be reacting to my jogging exercise, and my beer intake, but “terror”
was never in my actual chest. VINEETO: Oh yes, it is in your actual chest – denial is not going to solve anything. Here is an example of such a (spiritually-inspired) way of denial –
All passionate feelings, especially when experienced repeatedly and persistently, release chemicals (for instance adrenaline and cortisol) acting unfavourably on your physical body. Stress is slowly being acknowledged as being responsible for certain diseases and health problems.
In contrast –
In case you are looking for an additional convincing reason (apart from feeling bad) to be attentive to how you experience being alive and choose to be a different feeling when you do not enjoy/ appreciate being alive, then a wish to not have “the feeling of acute anxiety” with physical side-effects in your chest might give you additional motivation. Cheers Vineeto
ANDREW: The statement it “silly” not to feel good finally makes sense, beyond the obvious. I am experiencing the being no reason behind feeling bad! That really great. VINEETO: Hi Andrew, This is great. You may like this quote –
Cheers Vineeto
ANDREW: Small update, with a question or two for others! First to the questions; has anyone looked into ADHD or has ADHD? (…) Watching a few videos, I really saw that the traits match my MO in many ways. VINEETO: Hi Andrew, I personally don’t know much about the condition called Attention Deficit and Hyperactivity Disorder, only that applying this label has put a large number of people, especially children, on a psychiatric drug regiment, whereas in previous generations a great amount of physical activity seems to have taken care of the abundant energy young people have. I am aware that this is a non-professional and very simplified summary but it might nevertheless work for you. Sophisticated psychological labels tend to put you in a specific box and generally are not helpful to examine the reasons which prevent you from feeling good. I also remember that ‘Vineeto’, when ‘she’ studied social work at university and learnt about all sorts of psychological/ psychiatric disorders, ‘she’ was curious and eager to find out if they fitted to ‘her’ as well – a common ‘self’-centric reaction. For the aim of feeling good, come what may, it is more useful to individually respond to the factual personal observations you have described below and then assess each moment if what prevents you from feeling good now in terms of being silly or sensible – and then get back to feeling good. ANDREW: I can barely sit still for 15 minutes (unless I am interested, then an hour is possible, maybe!). Never have been able to. Will daydream constantly, procrastinate to the last minute, every time, constantly distracted, can become obsessed in an interest, only to drop it. Most jobs I have had have lasted between 6 months to 2 years, the longest was 4 years. Constantly bored from the earliest years unless I could completely get lost in drawing, cubby building, music or fantasy. VINEETO: For instance, when you discover a certain pattern in your behaviour you can investigate possible underlying reasons – a habitual response or a certain feeling you are perhaps trying to avoid or shying away from and go from there. Perhaps running away from uncomfortable feelings has been a long-standing habit (perhaps an acquired survival mechanism at an early age) and you may find, on closer inspection, that such avoidance is no longer necessary now that your life-circumstances have changed, i.e. you are no longer a helpless child or youngster, and never will be again. ANDREW: To round this post out with how I am feeling and going
overall; I am enjoying increasing simplicity in how I think and feel about Actualism and the method, what I can do
about it in this moment, and the tools I have to work with. For example, I am becoming more obsessed with simplicity
itself in thinking. Not letting myself get caught up in long considerations, letting it all “simmer” on the
back burner if nothing is obvious about any topic. The main goal is to be more and more aligned with
“benevolence and benignity”, aka pure intent. The life devotional goal. (…) VINEETO: What stands out in this paragraph is the description of “becoming more obsessed” as if “not letting myself get caught up in long considerations” is another psychiatric disorder instead of a beneficial change, which you can appreciate and for which you can pat yourself on the back. While it is great to have a “life devotional goal”, why not start with something more easy and simple – feeling good – with the sincere intent to be more and more happy and harmless and making enjoying and appreciating this moment of being alive the first “devotional goal”. It seems to work well so far and bears some tangible results. Cheers Vineeto
ANDREW: The fascinating bit will be what remains after becoming
free? VINEETO: Hi Andrew, It is indeed a fascinating inquiry of what remains after becoming free. There is little to add to what Kuba wrote at this point in your inquiry. If you read more of Richard’s writing, his journal and his correspondences, you will understand quite a bit of what disappears, it is in fact the whole of the psychological and the psychic faculty/ entity including those chemical processes which are triggered by this faculty/ entity. As Kuba said, Richard’s selected correspondence on sanity, insanity and salubriousness can give you some better understanding when read with a naïve attitude. It would save you a lot of searching around in the psychological/ psychiatric text-books for possible physical causes of your emotional/ psychological condition – unless you are specifically searching for a reason why change is not possible/ not desirable or not necessary, in order to allow you (in all good conscience) to continue your life-long habit of merely following your feelings no matter what the consequences for your well-being (and possibly that of others), instead of applying common sense whenever your mood dips below feeling good. But you had indicated in the post I replied to yesterday * KUBA: On the flight back from China I read through Richard’s correspondence on sanity, it was a very fascinating read actually, with the main takeaway being that actual freedom is completely outside of that sanity-insanity paradigm. Of course when viewed from within the real world paradigm it was classified as a severe psychotic disorder in Richard’s case. But the point being that what I saw (again) in the PCE the other day is that the actual world is a completely new world. ‘I’ exist somewhere in the psyche, ‘my’ world along with the various classifications of where ‘I’ exist within its boundaries, it all disappears in the PCE. It is not that ‘I’ am inside and the actual world is outside, both ‘inside and outside’ disappear in the PCE and there is only the actual world. Same with regards to time, that ‘I’ exist within the real world time span of past-present-future, which itself exists only in the psyche and in the PCE it disappears altogether. So to cut a long story short – all of ‘me’ as well as the various components of ‘my’ world disappear without a trace in the PCE. As it has been said "nothing dirty can get in" – this is indeed the case. So considering the above it seems rather clear to me that in full actual freedom there would not
be a trace of neuro-divergence left. Just who would be diverging from what exactly. VINEETO: Hi Kuba, An excellent post (as well as your two follow-up ones It’s marvellous that you can experientially confirm for yourself that "in full actual freedom there would not be a trace of neuro-divergence left". It all disappears as if by magic upon becoming free and then divesting oneself of the remnants of one’s social identity. Cheers Vineeto
ADAM-H: then a new thought about the issue strikes me, and I
start back down the feeling bad path. ANDREW: This has been a contemplation lately, and that is there
is a lot of subconscious stress, we get so used to it that it’s just "how things are", reading what you
have written really brought it into focus. What I mean is, I see these deeper issues reflecting in all aspects of
life, but often don’t acknowledge them. So, they do "pop up" when I am in a better mood, and I know the
experience of some simple intension (being determined to feel good), just not working like it did yesterday. VINEETO: Hi Andrew, The good news is that not feeling good when it happens has "brought this into focus" – and not only that but now you have more of an inkling that, and how, you can do something about it. I suggest, start with being a friend to yourself – to notice the habitual put-down of yourself (inculcated and trained for decades) and stop doing it whenever you notice. There is no need for putting yourself down at all as you already want to change for the better. So you are way ahead of your habitual ‘self’ in that you are determined to actively become more happy and harmless and have some effective tools to do it. It’s just a habit when you put yourself, so no reason to continue a bad habit. If you need more tools or understanding, it is amply explained on the Actual Freedom website, whatever topic you choose to go deeper into. You say "some issues are going to take time" – yes time, but more so courage. Courage to admit that those feelings are there despite one’s best intention and that they need to be acknowledged and sensibly looked at. Some, when discovered, you can discard right away, some are part of a larger pattern, perhaps intricately interwoven with some desire, or pride, or other cherished feelings. That takes courage to investigate. But then you will find that those cherished feelings (the ‘good’ feelings which spawn the bad ones) are not worth keeping either. Once you start it becomes either each time you have success. Cheers Vineeto
ANDREW: Hi Vineeto, To echo Adam’s theme of initial reaction to later appreciation, I
took this as encouragement but didn’t specifically have anything to be courageous about. I was also surprised by
the encouragement to be friendly with myself, it is always a great reminder for me. (…) VINEETO: Hi Andrew, Perhaps this is something to take note of – reminding yourself to be friendly with yourself until it becomes a beneficial habit. As your further post indicates, this reminder allowed you to feel some of the deeply buried fear and contemplate it. ANDREW: The drama in the moment of writing about the fear of failing again, has revealed more of the simplicity I look for these days, rather than any “thought out” type of conclusions based on the “story of my life”. The simplicity is the basic fear intrinsic to being a survival (and reproductive) program, at my core. It’s a feedback loop which is now focused on the fact there is a lot less potential life ahead, than there is behind, and the daily reminders from the aging process that this is not math, or theoretical. The fear, which is me, and has always been so much that a) was ever present, b) not admitted, ever. I distinctly remember the moment I vowed to myself I would not admit I was afraid even. It of course, didn’t stop me being afraid, but it means I denied it to myself so thoroughly that in many circumstances I didn’t even feel it. That moment was as a child when the stove caught on fire, an oil fire on the cook-top when someone had left oil heating up. I remember “screaming like a girl” and in that was even going to douse the flames with water, though I don’t remember what happened. I remember such shame sitting on the step out the front of the house, that I vowed that I would never be afraid again. I was about 10 years old, I think. I have of course, felt fear many, many times, but it is surprising how few, if any will I openly
admit feeling it. I probably have talked about it, in theory, but admitting, in the moment, that I am afraid, is
rare. VINEETO: This was a harsh treatment indeed for a 10-year-old, and when fear is constantly
pushed away, it automatically grows – the very affective energy of pushing it away increases the affective charge
of the unwanted feeling. And when it is seriously suppressed, over a long period of time, it results in all kinds of
psycho-somatic side-effects. For additional general information see Richard, Dissociation and Trauma So it’s very beneficial that you can now allow to acknowledge and feel the feeling of fear, as much as you dare each time, being friendly and shining the bright light of awareness and contemplative attentiveness on those feelings.
When you apply this kind of contemplation, at bit at a time, and then perhaps longer, not getting side-tracked into imaginations or intuitions, then the affective charge of fear will diminish and allow you to more deeply understand how you tick. It might well diminish the restlessness you reported. Of course, you can do that with any feeling that arises. Cheers Vineeto
ANDREW: Thanks Vineeto, I had never truly contemplated the now obvious parallel to the institutional disassociation described in the link to the AFT. Wow! VINEETO: Hi Andrew, I am pleased this article about ‘dissociation and trauma’ ANDREW: Indeed, I went for a walk this morning and that was the theme, being completely ok with feeling whatever I am actually feeling! If I am afraid, nervous, and otherwise stressed, then so be it! I need to acknowledge fully that this is all me! As Geoffrey said in his report of becoming free, that it was him, not some ‘self’ with enough quotation marks as not to really be him, but him! The one thinking and feeling right now! (Paraphrased from memory). VINEETO: Indeed, acknowledging the feeling fully, i.e. affectively, is how you find out how you are, and from there you can make a choice how you want to experience this moment of being alive – given that you do have this choice. Here is the quote you are paraphrasing –
This is the sincerity to the core where you can genuinely experience how you tick and also make the choice for action, guided by the sincere intent (willingness/ readiness) to be felicitous and innocuous, happy and harmless. ANDREW: Another little phrase I came up with “it doesn’t matter that I will most probably feel horrible or bad in the future, most probably a lot, and most probably for a long while, that doesn’t mean I have to feel bad in this moment”. This feels freeing from the ‘intellectual’ habit of giving up because it’s “all going to be taken away anyway”. Which segues into the encouragement to have courage! Anticipating pain usually means seeking to avoid it, however this imaginary pain, of ‘losing’ whatever joy or happiness I have now, shoots the baby, and tips out the bath water “just in case” I will be disappointed. VINEETO: Of course, pessimism or even cynicism are no recipe to avoid the pain of disappointment, and if I am not mistaken you have tried that for years and know it doesn’t work. What Richard suggests is something that cuts through all anticipation and disappointment –
And the tool tip next to it explains it further –
You almost said something like this yourself –
Your ““just in case” I will be disappointed” is the well-known safe-guarding against an already anticipated future from experiences in the (remembered) past, whereas when you recognize that only now is actual genuine change can and will happen. It is both simple and radical. ANDREW: I have resolved that it’s ok to feel bad, for as
long as it takes in any moment, to otherwise a) completely stop fighting myself b) take on board the simplicity of
the method; that is, it is only me who can chose what I am feeling, and I won’t be able to do that if I am busy
fighting myself. VINEETO: I do understand that you want to start where you are at and first get used to not pushing uncomfortable feelings away, to replace this habit by stopping fighting those feelings and let yourself be as you presently are – and be a friend to yourself. One step at a time. I liked how Adam-H understood what it means to “being my own best friend” –
Which means that eventually you discover that letting yourself be as you presently are, as a friend, segues into not letting yourself ruin your own day. Cheers Vineeto
ANDREW:
This reaffirms the startling and terrible premise; if for the most extreme, and historically accurate example, a child is sexually exploited and then slaughtered on an altar, both the child and the sexual exploiter and slaughterer would have experienced good feelings. All conformed to the morality of the tribe and group. (…) So, this requires some consideration. If all involved are experiencing good feelings, because they are morally in alignment with the tribe, how is that something to be free of? I am not objecting to actual freedom here. I am not objecting at all, honestly! This just seems so bizarre! Good feelings arise through the fact that an individual is completely conformed with the moral code of the tribe. Or is that a misunderstanding?
VINEETO: Hi Andrew, Why do you find it bizarre that ‘good’ feelings arise from feeling virtuous (obeying the general moral (and ethical) code of the tribe? Have you really understood what the aim of the actualism method is – being happy and harmless (experiencing the felicitous and innocuous feelings)? You cannot be genuinely happy unless you are harmless. ‘Good’ feelings, such as love, compassion or being virtuous is not equivalent to feeling good the way it is used on the AFT site.
ANDREW: To go further, to prove this isn’t written with an adversarial intent; I have never examined “good feelings”. Shocking as that may be, I never really got beyond any of the bad feelings. I genuinely find that funny!! Like it’s really funny to me that it’s true! Indeed, I am having a thought now that I will continue to explore. “Good feelings” especially the compassionate, empathetic, and loving kind are so deeply embedded in the fabric of who I am, I am starting to wonder if it was always going to be a challenge for me to question anything. The thought being, I find anger so refreshing! Sadness too. I have not had motivation to be free of being “mad” and “sad” as they are a holiday for me. That’s a conjecture, and speculation. Questioning “good feelings” especially in the context of this quotation, is radically new to me! Thanks for the quote. Hopefully all can see my smiling and perplexed face in writing this. VINEETO: To save you further speculations here is what Richard has to say –
And to make the difference clear between feeling good and ‘good’ feelings –
The admission that “The thought being, I find anger so refreshing! Sadness too. I have not had motivation to be free of being “mad” and “sad” as they are a holiday for me” may well be an explanation why you have a certain resistance to examine “good feelings”. I have given you these extensive quotes so that you can base your exploration on factual information and experiential reports, and thus your investigation into your psyche can be more sincere (in accord with the facts). * ANDREW:
So, there is something missing in this thought between the “cozy safety” and the thought that one would want to be “free” from it. Why? If the good feelings arise from doing what ever “every one else considers the right or good deed” then completely conforming to the same will result in perpetual good feelings. Where is the trigger that anyone would want to be free?
VINEETO: This is such a silly question. Have you been having continuous ‘good’ feelings doing “the right or good deed”? If not, why not? I am genuinely wondering about your intent of writing this? Weren’t you once relieved to understand your guilt, the feeling of not “good”?
I can somehow understand you are not interested enough to read other people’s posts here on the forum, who lately talked a lot about the role ‘good’ feelings play in the scheme of their investigations of being able to enjoy and appreciate being alive, but to forget your own significant insights is quite an achievement. Cheers Vineeto
ANDREW: Hi Vineeto! Firstly, so there is no misunderstanding, none of my expressions of finding things “bizarre” were objections. So as to frame this current reply correctly, I was “riffing” on the quotation and exploring it in the open, mostly for fun. Hence the repeated sentences about “not objecting to actualism”. In that spirit, I will reply to some of your questions even though they seem to have been written rhetorically.
I more accurate description was “startled”, as in “wow, I had never made that connection like that!” following that thought was that someone could, in the most objectively brutal circumstances, be experiencing “good feelings” (which you say arise from feeling virtuous). So that I am not further replying, when there maybe (yet another) example of my writing style and skill (and tools) misrepresenting the spirit and intent of my posts: I am well read in much of actualism and much of the forum. My posts were “thinking” out loud, as in openly looking at the premise. Cheers VINEETO: Hi Andrew, Thank you for letting me know that your posts on the forum are “‘thinking’ out loud, as in openly looking at the premise”, so I’ll refrain from butting into your thought processes or “riffing” unless you have a specific question. I am also pleased to know that you are “well read in much of actualism and much of the forum” so you know more than you let on in your musings. I was particularly delighted to read this paragraph in your last contribution – ANDREW: The goal is peace on earth. the end of malice and
sorrow. the end of wars, rape, murder, child abuse, general exploitation and being sold stale donuts. VINEETO: And yes, stale donuts in that sentence are indeed funny. Cheers Vineeto
KUBA: Richard described ‘my’ self-immolation, that after the
fact one (as a flesh and blood body) can know that ‘I’ never actually existed in the first place, and yet for ‘me’ it is a death which is as real
as it gets. ANDREW: I was just walking around the river, having a successful time (as per my journal
post of a couple hours back), and this exact consideration arose, but in reverse! It was a thought and feeling that “nothing” would take my place that seemed somewhat sad to me, but almost immediately I caught the extreme irony of being in anyway worried that nothing would take my place, considering just what a mess I make! All the years of anger and sadness, malice and sorrow, frustration and despondency! How would “nothing” be worse than that!!?? I genuinely laughed for a good five minutes, carefully avoiding appearing like a madman when a
person passed the other way, but the proceeding to grin my face off with just how ridiculous it was to think and feel that “nothing”
was something somehow worse than me! VINEETO: Hi Andrew, It’s a pity, that such a potentially beneficial insight only strikes you as “irony” – synonyms: sarcasm, dryness, sharpness, acerbity, bitterness, cynicism, mockery, ridicule. At best it can mean ‘wryly amusing’. The reason I say “it’s a pity” is because the same insight – that when ‘you’ disappear nothing will be left, is the most wonderful condition, the most marvellous beneficence and benevolence one can experience. That is, when you rid yourself of the ‘first commandment’ of ‘me’ that “I have to be somebody”, even temporarily. Then your genuine laughter will have no tinge of dryness, bitterness, cynicism or ridicule to it, then you can enjoy the genuine delight of experientially understanding that you can change your human nature to the point where you allow yourself to disappear, simply because it is the only thing that makes sense. Permit yourself to come back to this contemplation, it has great potential – “How would ‘nothing’ be worse than” the mess ‘I’ make? This “nothing” means that when ‘I’ abdicate the throne it will make the perfection of the actual world apparent. ANDREW: The river was particularly picturesque today. Being an affluent out of the way
suburb , there is a certain serenity to the place. The sun sets over the river, with the cockatoos flying about, the
boats moored in the river slewing to match the tumbling softness of the moderate south westerly breeze. VINEETO: Mmh, nostalgia consists of a range of feelings when living in the imagination, colouring the past, often with rosy colours but soon vacillating to doom and desperation. One can revel for a while in the ‘good’ feeling side of it but as you describe yourself, it eventually turns into its opposite, despondency and sadness. I recommend to ‘nip it in the bud’ as soon as you become aware of it and get back to genuinely feeling good, sensuously enjoy and appreciate being alive now, in this only actively-experienced moment.
ANDREW: Another aspect of nostalgia is legacy. Leaving a legacy, following someone else’s legacy.
In other words, Being a legend. I considered the whole time my sons. (…) VINEETO: Here is a radical suggestion if you will – how about a legacy of becoming anonymous – being nobody in particular and living in delight and wonder, doing nothing really well. First you learn the skills of ‘being’ less, diminishing the demands of ‘me’ and of society at large. Instead, you allow yourself to appreciate what is already here when ‘you’ are quiet, cherish what you see, the birds and the colours in the sky and the picturesque river, savour the sounds you hear, smell the scents in the air, feel the friendly balmy air of a summer evening. Then, when you mastered the skills and joys of being nobody in particular, and it happens more and more of its own accord, it becomes an art of living and you let life live you. No demands, no responsibility, just sensibly taking care of necessities. Wouldn’t that be a legacy worth passing on for the benefit of everyone who cares to emulate it? Cheers Vineeto
ANDREW: Cheers Vineeto! It really amazing that you picked up on my use of the word irony! I hadn’t spotted that indeed there was a “wryly amusing” aspect to it. I am pleased that I used the word, and it had that meaning, in that it was accurate to an extent for sure. There was also a general gladness that I had found it funny too, but it is accurate that there was a slightly cynical and self-reproach in the humour. The next day, which was yesterday, I had a very heavy time dealing with beauty, specifically I
saw an old image of me, and waves of hatred and disgust swept over me. The coincidence of the previous days “nostalgia” attack wasn’t lost
on me, as these two, “nostalgia” and “hating my looks” have been bubbling away unexamined for a very long while. I didn’t write anything yesterday as I hadn’t been able to really get back to a solid “feel good”. The working day was actually quite good though, and reading your message was so refreshing! Time for a walk! Cheers Andrew VINEETO: G’day Andrew, I am pleased you could relate to that and recognize the “self-reproach in the humour” – not exactly being kind to yourself, isn’t it. And as a result of being aware of the “self-reproach” you discovered another “elephant in the room” named not being a friend to yourself – well done. It’s hard for me to picture you living life with two elephants “sit on your head”! What a hilarious metaphor, thank you for the humour. Well, now that your “secret guilty indulgences” are out in the open you cannot maintain them any longer, these ones have lost their credibility. You are well on your way to unearth more of such ‘secrets’ which cannot survive honest scrutiny – and thus the reasons for not feeling good are diminished day by day. Perhaps you can now understand what it means when Kuba said –
Or when I wrote –
When you understand the principle how it works you can apply the same medicine for all the ‘elephant-issues’, or the same technique to all obstacles to enjoying and appreciating being alive right now, right here. Peter called his journal “Freedom … another word for nothing left to lose …” (paraphrasing from an old Janis Joplin song). It fits, doesn’t it? Cheers Vineeto
ANDREW: Thanks Vineeto, I have been attempting the second point,
Went looking for more on the AFT website as well, though didn’t find anything. I will have another look this evening. I remember Richard writing about “nothing ultimately matters”, but not “it doesn’t really matter” basis. Is it in an article? VINEETO: Hi Andrew, You can search the word “preference” here Cheers Vineeto
ANDREW: (…) People who explored and found this obscure
“cult” where feeling good is the ultimate entry point! VINEETO: Hi Andrew, As you enjoy writing on this forum and, besides “cringing”, consider it an achievement that you are doing it, perhaps it is beneficial to look closer at the above statement. Recently I had long discussions with Syd because I discovered that for him ‘feeling good’
initially included all the feelings which hedonically feel good, i.e. the ‘good feelings’ I also had a detailed discussion with you about the nature of ‘good’ feelings
As this title sounds more self-aggrandising or at least ‘self’-enhancing, in contrast to putting everything on an ‘it-doesn’t-really-matter’ basis, I am rather baffled as to your intentions and your understanding of the term ‘feeling good’. Perhaps all is well and you are throwing off old cobwebs of the past because you also say, in the middle of it all –
Just checking. Cheers Vineeto
ANDREW: Hi Vineeto, Thanks for the reply. I was drunk, however, the inclination to post and cringe has been there in any state of mind. Underneath it all, there is loneliness. However, practically, there was also the thought that
this “post then cringe” pattern, which predates Actualism, indeed predates the internet itself. From one extreme to the other, with the same rebellious ideas powering the dynamic. But, I saw that loneliness as the main driving factor. The desire for connection, the desire for conversation with actualists. The knowledge that despite the “cringe” it’s going to take a village for me to change. That sounds just as pathetic to me as it surely does to others. However, is it not a fact that
as of now, very few have had the individual fortitude the make it solo? VINEETO: Hi Andrew, Thank you for your sincere reply. Perhaps the prospect of “put everything on an ‘it-doesn’t-really-matter’ basis” was a bit too daunting for now. So for now, you return to the other of the two most potent techniques – i.e. being kind to yourself, being a friend to yourself.
Being a friend to yourself really needs to take foot in your psyche and become a constant habit, not only that you won’t put yourself down but also that you don’t doubt your own “individual fortitude the make it solo”. Some did “make it solo” and if they can, so can you. Being a friend to yourself there is no need to feel lonely – you have been on your own and taken care of yourself almost all of your life. Sometimes there was/is enjoyable company, but the majority of your life you took care of yourself quite well on your own. And remember, loneliness is a feeling and a feeling is not a fact. So when you stop pushing it away or endorsing it (i.e. giving it affective energy), the feeling will change and make way for feeling good again. Adam recently said it quite well –
He also reported another great insight –
ANDREW: Discussing the single most important thing to me is locked behind a screen. VINEETO: It takes time – being a genuine friend to yourself will eventually unlock your mysteries to yourself, and that’s when you can communicate it best. Cheers Vineeto PS: Don’t put too much stock in what your co-respondent says
ANDREW: Thanks Vineeto, I appreciate the time you take to read and respond so insightfully to this forum! It was a contemplation today that it is a privilege to have you responding to us here. VINEETO: Hi Andrew, You are very welcome and it speaks for your perspicacity of your contemplation. ANDREW: I often remind myself that actual freedom is what it says on the box! There is actual freedom! There is no responsibility or obligation to be a part of this forum, or anything like it. VINEETO: Here is the context where I used the term “no responsibility” –
I was talking about the ‘self’-diminishing art of living, of being nobody in particular, where there are no demands and no responsibility in order to ‘be’ somebody. Of course, this also implies that you obey the legal laws and social protocols of the country you are living in. Therefore, remember Richard’s warning, before you dismantle the social identity, and drop any responsibility or obligation which ‘you’ the feeling being perceives, that “it is an utterly fundamental proviso that pure intent be dedicatorily in place”. I am saying this because I know from experience how very cunning ‘I’ could be, possibly interpreting it as licentiousness, for instance. ANDREW: I patted myself on the back for being sincere enough that you could read and comment on it. I was pushing into the ‘cringe’ to find out more about it. Turns out loneliness will indeed create all sorts of ‘cringe’, and it’s pleasant to simply have it out in the open. It helps me gather back my resolve to change. VINEETO: That is great – and that is also one aspect of what you later mentioned as “cut to the chase”. Now you know how to share without having to ‘cringe’ afterwards. Find out what happens when you acknowledge, that loneliness is merely a feeling and there is no obligation to fulfill this feeling’s demands. ANDREW: On that note, I came across a fear when really wondering why I hadn’t just “pushed the button”. Considering that every actually free person who has written anything about their freedom has expressed “surprise” that others haven’t also “stepped out of the real world”, I was also looking into it. VINEETO: Whenever there is great fear when you contemplate ‘self-immolation, it means ‘I’, or dominant aspects of ‘me’, do at present not agree to ‘my’ demise. ‘I’ am dominating and don’t want to relinquish ‘my’ affective power. That’s why intent and affective attentiveness is so important to allow yourself to be drawn to the clarity and joy of being here and remove the various obstacles to enjoy being here. Being happy and harmless is the actualist’s tool to minimize ‘my’ strength and ‘my’ influence bit by bit, habits, beliefs and attitudes. And being a friend to yourself is a significant technique to utilise to replace the habit of chastising yourself. ANDREW: All the excuses. Well over a decade of reasons/ excuses, it seemed that if I didn’t find a way to “cut to the chase” this will be the way it goes for me. VINEETO: Aren’t you putting the bar to high and then demand yourself to jump? That’s not very friendly to yourself … and makes no sense either. ANDREW: However, back to the fear. I felt that there was an aspect of fear around success in this ultimate quest. The fear was around what happened to Jesus. VINEETO: If you remember the prophecies in the bible, Jesus was predicted to be the Messiah, who was destined to deliver the Jews from the yoke of Roman domination. Of course, if you have a similar imagination about an actual freedom, you are in trouble! Whenever you want to push for self-immolation before you are ready to joyfully acquiesce, you will possibly encounter immense fear and possibly altered states as the “doomsday straws” to prevent that. It may well mean you have not yet a solid base of being happy and harmless in an ongoing way, and are allowing your feelings to push you from one side to the other. ANDREW: Though I am no longer young man, I felt the hesitation to do anything which would put me in the crosshairs of the types which nailed him up (and the many like him, not only in his time, but in all times). VINEETO: Ok, I think I understand you now. ‘Vineeto’ at some point had the atavistic fear of being burnt as a witch if ‘she’ stepped outside the norm.
ANDREW: I saw this while thinking about the efforts made to stay anonymous by actually free people. VINEETO: You are mainly talking about Richard, I think, how he did not want his last name used publicly. It was mainly to protect those with the same last name from being drawn into any malicious acts of those ‘feeling beings’ threatened by the actual freedom Richard wrote about – and as the ‘Mother of all Kerfuffles’ demonstrated – and people did indeed get quite malicious. ANDREW: I knew it was sensible, but the perspective involving the type of hatred those in power
have for radical people, had not fully occurred to me. Further to that, was how I am afraid of them, of that hatred
and blind murderous intent so often played out in the world towards new, and radical people looking to improve the
world. VINEETO: You are mixing two different topics – Richard talks about changing yourself, not society.
‘Vineeto’ or ‘Peter’ never ever got into trouble with “those in power”, nor did Richard. Actual freedom is not a revolution in the sense of overthrowing “those in power” (as much as any rebel-rouser wants that to happen) – it is all about changing oneself; the happy and harmless vibes you will then automatically emanate may or may not entice people to do the same for themselves.
Cheers Vineeto
VINEETO: “That is great – and that is also one aspect of what you later mentioned as “cut to the chase”. Now you know how to share without having to ‘cringe’ afterwards. Find out what happens when you acknowledge, that loneliness is merely a feeling and there is no obligation to fulfill this feeling’s demands.” ANDREW: This last sentence of yours has been a theme for me for a while “no obligation to fulfill this feeling’s demands”. VINEETO: Hi Andrew, It is indeed a good theme to keep at the front of your mind and helps to shift from urges to preferences upon sensible contemplation on dominant feelings. ANDREW: I am seeing now that because I have ignored many subtle feelings, and generally been focused on the demands of the “big ones” (fear, sadness, anger), the details of the genuine feeling happening, which can make a difference, have been glossed over. For example, I saw today in addition to loneliness, I was blocking out any desire for physical touch. It’s now over two years of celibacy, and I had thought that with the reduction of libido, and whatever other factors, desire and affection were not going to feature much more. But! I was ignoring all the dreams of women I have when asleep. Or not so much ignoring them, but not considering their importance. I have had plenty of girlfriends in my sleep! Haha This also had a parallel today when walking. I should be enjoying myself based on the circumstances. There were moments, and there was a moment or two of naïveté, well, the curiosity that is a childhood “friend” to naïveté. VINEETO: Ah, once you get into the habit of not instantly fulfilling the dominant feeling’s demands you become aware of the more subtle feelings which “have been glossed over”. Can you see that this increased sensitivity and its accompanying information about how you ‘tick’ helps you to shift to more enjoyment and appreciation? ANDREW: The should was obvious. I was trying to force myself to “enjoy”. I started to notice that I “lump” emotional “feeling good” in with conditional enjoyment. As in, a nice soft lounge is preferred to a grass lawn, and a grass lawn preferred to a patch of dirt. As I looked around, I wanted a soft couch! I started to see that separating out my preferences from my emotions is an aspect of what ‘feeling good’ is all about. The “come what may”. It’s not that the river isn’t pleasant, but I emotionally tire of it as I prefer to be at home in my comfy chair! Noticing when a preference is being ignored, or otherwise the feeling being ignored one two things for me to work on; one being as sincere as possible about my feelings in as much subtle detail as I can, and two letting preferences be separate to the goal of feeling good. However, I lost the theme I was wanting to talk about concerning “…merely a feeling and there is no obligation to fulfill this feelings demands”. VINEETO: Excellent, the more attention you pay to how you affectively experience this moment the more you have the choice to nudge it towards feeling good. ANDREW: I think it’s
worth posting rather than not posting. Even though there is, and will be, feelings and demands, I can see that having
sincerity can bring everything back on track, even if the initial inspiration was misguided but well intended.
(Empowering myself to post, even though I already post a lot. Haha) VINEETO: I agree with you – writing it down often helps to stay on track in one’s thinking and to come back to the original question/ theme after branching out into various explorations –
ANDREW: Additionally, as a placeholder for this thought: ignoring the first impulse in any behavior/ decision, and going for a second thought, or as best to a sensible one as possible. The idea being, the first impulse is going to be the unintelligent feeling more than the second or third which will be more conditioned feelings, and progressively have less distance between sensible thoughts and behaviors. The idea being, feelings arrive faster than a “thought through decision”, so as a
blanket rule, ignoring the first impulse is going to catch the majority of blind reactiveness. VINEETO: This is an excellent discovery and worth sticking on your fridge, so to speak. I like it. Feelings are indeed both faster and more dominant compared to rational, sensible thoughts in the information chain of the brain (link). Cheers Vineeto
ANDREW: Yeah, it highlights the absurd way habits persist even when there is no reason. I mean, if one was late to work and was in a situation where that had been a habit, and one’s boss was going to give you a written warning, one could somewhat excuse a desperate attempt at being on time to work. However, I have not been in a situation for at least a couple of decades, where it mattered that much when I got to work. It’s been more a matter of professional respect to be within a window of arrival. So why would there be any annoyance or anger within my behaviour when someone makes a decision that may, in an extreme case, add a few seconds to my journey! Edit: I am seeing this as “low hanging fruit” which I have neglected to harvest. Richard wasn’t making
things up when he said much of it is habitual! VINEETO: Hi Andrew, Recognizing that this ‘habit’ of wanting to get there quickly, even when it doesn’t matter, has been persistent throughout your life and that of millions of others, is perhaps worth further investigation. Could it be that sitting in a car for a period of time, and beyond ‘your’ control into the bargain, where your mind is idle without much distraction, allows more often than not the basic resentment of being here to surface? Cheers Vineeto
ANDREW: Thanks Vineeto, I would not have considered that in a proverbial “million years” but it a radical thought which I would call “very deep”. Certainly, all sorts of resentments (from outrage to being wryly amused) are present. To think that the basic resentments of “being here” is the fundamental level though, that’s very eye opening to think. I like how straight forward that is to contemplate. How it can be that I am always in some level
of this resentment, at that blind level, and all the stories can be simplified. VINEETO: Hi Andrew, It is quite simple, really. When you report, sitting in slow traffic in a car and get irritated, or annoyed, it means you are not enjoying this moment being alive. You don’t enjoy being here. Why? For instance, you are more or less oblivious to the magnificence of your surroundings, the technology which is involved in being able to have a car and drive a car, the skill involved in driving, the network of roads and traffic control, the adjacent landscape, the air temperature, the sounds and the splendour of this amazing planet itself. For instance, you are also not aware that this moment is the only moment you can actively experience being alive – not the moment when you left home, not the time you arrive at your destination, but this very moment you are here, now. And furthermore, you are not aware that it is always this moment, wherever you are, it is always now. In short, when you not aware of all I described above, you don’t like being here. You (temporarily) forgot that your intent in feeling good is to imitate the actual – as is virtually experienced when you feel excellent – and remembering that you forgot, you can realize that you can experience such excellence again, now – because actuality in its perfection is already here once ‘you’ and ‘your’ complaints get out of the way. When you look at this resentment of being here, really look at this basic resentment of having been born, you might grasp how extraordinarily silly it is to hold onto it and nurse it like a precious gem. One such penetrating insight can be enough to be done with it for the rest of your life – it just takes a little courage to let go of something you previously considered ‘your bosom buddy’. Your destiny is in your hands and your hands alone – and who would want it any other way. To realise – and actualise – this is what makes you autonomous. Cheers Vineeto
ANDREW: Minimising the malice and sorrow, while maximising the felicity and innocuous, IS minimising the entire ‘self’ automatically. I just didn’t see this before! There is no separate “minimisation” of ‘myself’ other than what is achieved via “enjoying and appreciating facilitated by feeling good, great, happy and harmless”. That is the entire trick! VINEETO: Hi Andrew, Yes, well spotted – this is how it works, all the way. And the more you allow your hidden-away-since-puberty naiveté to come to the fore, the easier it becomes to solve this puzzle of how you ‘tick’ in order to facilitate “feeling good, great, happy and harmless”. Persistence and courage are the other ingredients to make it work. And now that you see the overall picture how the actualism method works you can allow yourself to let those insights percolate and then actualise them bit by bit. ANDREW: Edit; there has always been a trick I played on myself so as to get “no where” with Actualism. It was in many moments, an “imperative command”. Even all the way back to Yahoo, I said as much to Richard. I was looking for a “god man” to tell me what to do, but I had only got as far as to rebel against such god men. I was stuck in rebellion. That was a “free” as I could feel. Following on from the realisation that ‘I’, the person I feel myself to be, the ‘Andrew’ who is the only one writing this, GETS TO ENJOY the whole ride! What would “bounce” me, is that rebellion. Which, I see now, quite clearly was ‘me’ protecting ‘my’ existence the entire time. What I was rebellious against was the very thing Actualism was NEVER saying! It never said that I needed to suffer. Or that more fully explained, that because ‘I’ am the reason the world is messed up, (rotten to the core) that in NO WAY was there any repercussions, or condemnation, or even embarrassment, and especially not “repentance” required. VINEETO: A great summary of many smaller insights which eventually revealed more of your attitude and beliefs towards the world in general and actualism in particular. And especially because you can see there is no “repentance required” you can leave this attitude in the ‘been-there-done-that’ basket where it belongs. ANDREW: I literally have been offered to enjoy and appreciate my way to actual freedom, for something like 14 years. I never got that part. Suffering was never encouraged, or in any way prescribed. As I am still working through this I will say more. (Rather than waiting for a thesis). I was ALREADY suffering. I was already having a mainly unpleasant time. It is indeed highly motivating to seek an answer, an escape, a blissful release. What didn’t click, was that was never part of the solution. ‘I’ am the suffering. So, it was always about minimising that suffering, which was made up of malice and sorrow, and maximising feeling good. I don’t in anyway blame my past self, and I am writing more, as if I left it as it was, it certainly looks like some blame is in there. As in, I was worthy of “wry amusement”, … I can’t say that anything could have changed that, in hindsight. At this point, I am tempted to try and “solve the problem” as to why 14 years have passed. As if saving the next person is my responsibility. (I am yet to “save myself”). VINEETO: When you look at the overall outcome – how you were feeling 14 years ago and the result of what you have comprehended now and are gradually putting into action now – those years have been successful in facilitating your insights and you are therefore feeling better today. You could say that it needed time for gestation and background rewiring of your previous attitude(s) … and, of course, a good dash of enough is enough. Perhaps you are interested in reading about Peasant Mentality ANDREW: Anyway, that last paragraph is to fill out that there
was never a “shorter path”, and I am not at the end, yet. It’s to acknowledge that indeed, once one is on
the path to improving one’s lot, one will have the drama needed. Not because it is prescribed, but because, IT WAS
ALWAYS ALREADY THERE. VINEETO: I am pleased to hear you say “there was never a ‘shorter path’”. So many people interested in actualism have initially tried the ‘shorter path’ by jumping straight to the end, which turned out to be a futile enterprise –
To reiterate, nothing is wrong, and I am pleased to read of your progress to feeling good. Cheers Vineeto
VINEETO: … the more you allow your hidden-away-since-puberty naiveté to come to the fore … ANDREW: That naïveté was buried long before puberty. Which has been the issue. I dare say, the issue for many. I have vivid memories of the sexual confusion that abuse creates even at 4 and 5 years old. Some of my earliest memories are twisted sexual dreams. Let’s say naïveté was already on the ropes a long time before hormones got a hold of me. VINEETO: Hi Andrew, Having read your various subsequent posts and reports I realise that your childhood naiveté was indeed very early crushed in a brutal manner long before puberty. It fully explains why you said in a previous post –
… and appreciable success that you “got that part” now. ANDREW: What my walk really started to solidify is just how subtle shame is. I always had this deep guilt that my life wasn’t bad enough to feel bad about. Even after everything, burying my daughter, losing my first brother, my father, I was always in my own estimation pathetic and not worthy of anyone’s consideration. However, there was always that other side of human nature which would lash out for attention. Back to the topic, shame is so very subtle. All the ways I consider people slipping into
self-condemnation, even at subtle levels. The whole “sorry for taking up space”. VINEETO: In a way your detailed affective exploration into shame is a follow-up and (possibly) deepening of your earlier understanding of guilt, for instance when you said –
Your deeper explorations into the various levels of shame may or may not be necessary/ beneficent to grasp the fundamental fact that ‘you’ are not to blame, that it is not ‘your’ fault. Here is an example of what Richard says about shame and guilt –
In other words, once you had enough of affectively remembering why you feel/ felt ashamed and guilty (in a negative nostalgia if you will) then you can get “back to the topic”, which is feeling good and enjoying and appreciating being alive right here, right now, and in this manner doing something beneficial for yourself and others regarding the mess which is the human condition. Cheers Vineeto
VINEETO: Your deeper explorations into the various levels of shame may or may not be necessary or beneficent to grasp the fundamental fact that ‘you’ are not to blame, that it is not ‘your’ fault. Here is an example of what Richard says about shame and guilt – ANDREW: Thanks Vineeto, Indeed, my focus is using all of this to get even more detailed kindness happening. And that is what I have been doing. Seeing every subtle way that a shameful and shaming, or avoiding shame thought and internal dialogue happens. I see it also in everyday exchanges, and also in the way English is even structured. There is an imperative built in, and it shortens our sentences down to a verb. You “should” do this, or why did you “do” that? There is so much packed into each sentence, but mostly the verbs. A lot can be said for longer and more detail internal dialogue which is what I have been doing. Letting thoughts extend to give time for the most inclusive and gentle observations and decision making. For example, what I might normally say internally: “I should clean the car so I can sell it”. A kinder, longer, and gentle (also factual), “I have the option to clean the car and also look at how I am going approach the watermarks, I could sell it as-is, but this seems a better solution, if I can get some headway on it, that is a good outcome”. VINEETO: Hi Andrew, When you have thoroughly grasped “the fundamental fact that ‘you’ are not to blame, that it is not ‘your’ fault” then this shame/ guilt of being alive will be out of your system, and you don’t have to do linguistic gymnastics to carefully avoid shaming or blaming yourself. The change happens on a deep feeling level, verbalisations follow the feeling change. Obviously this fact has not sunk in deeply enough to require those “gentle” verbal measures. ANDREW: Not exactly what I said, but the gist is: I almost never “have to” and “should” do anything. Most of the time there are options, and there is time to gently think through what is happening, what those options are, and most importantly feel as gentle towards myself and what is happening as possible at all times, because it’s much nicer to be around myself when that is the understanding of the goal. Being simultaneously the world’s best boss and most valuable employee. Haha. VINEETO: As for you “have to” or “should” be doing something, depends on the situation – when your bladder is full you have to empty it, and there is no emotional charge neither in thought nor in action. Rather than mentally re-structuring your language to be “kinder, longer, and gentle”, be attentive to your emotional/ psychic attitude to yourself (and in consequence to others), in order to identify and acknowledge the root cause. In other words, address the affective root – that you swallowed the belief that you are taking up space, hook, line and sinker, for instance – and when you, consciously and with aforethought, abandon this (harshly indoctrinated) belief, everything connected to it will fall into place. Cheers Vineeto
VINEETO: The change happens on a deep feeling level, verbalisations follow the feeling change. ANDREW: I have yet to experience this, on any topic. For me, I take it on advice that this is possible, as it would be no use trying if it was not possible, but I will continue to do what occurs to me as useful. Exactly how can a change happen “on a deep feeling level”? VINEETO: Hi Andrew, Taking fully on board that ‘I’ am my feelings and my feelings are ‘me’ you enables a decision that you no longer want to be the feeling of being ashamed for ‘taking up space’, for instance, because you sensibly and intelligently see that it is silly to do so. Fact is you are here and obviously take up space by being here, and hence it is silly (if not outright absurd) to apologize/feel ashamed for being here on this amazing planet. You also understand that nobody forces you to be this feeling but yourself. So it is in your hands, and your hands alone, to be a felicitous and appreciative feeling instead of a shameful and sorrowful feeling. What complicates or compounds this apologetic feeling of being here is that ‘I’, the alien identity, having usurped control over the flesh-and-blood body from birth onwards knows deep down that it is a contingent ‘being’, exerting dominance via the instinctual passions whilst wholly dependent on your compliance. The more you diminish this dominance via minimising the ‘good’ and bad feelings and maximise the felicitous and innocuous feelings, the more your native intelligence can operate – as you put it so well the other day –
ANDREW: It’s very much a starting where I am scenario. I respond to people who speak nicely. I enjoy them, so I am setting out to imitate this type of self talk. My understanding is that habits are shaped through repetition, rather than any moment of instant change. I am indeed aiming at change at a “deep feeling level” but I see no option than to
continue to change habits and verbal self talk. If there is an “instant” way, then I am all
“eyes”. VINEETO: Of course, it makes sense to be attentive to any left-over habitual behaviour and adjust it as soon as you become aware of it but the recognition that it is unnecessary and silly to continue being ashamed makes the adjustment a breeze. ANDREW: Looking around at the river, feeling my skin
occasionally itch, seeing a mosquito or a fly. Considering the vast variety of life all around me, on me, and in me,
gave me something to both appreciate, and also dispel some of the “special” I feel I should be. VINEETO: This is a potent discovery which you mentioned here en passant – as part of the whole emotional topic of feeling shame and blame there is hidden a ‘good’ feeling, which needs to be recognized and acknowledged in order to dismantle the whole pattern – in this case, feeling to be “special”. You cannot abandon the bad side of this particular feeling-complex without also abandoning the ‘good’ feeling which enables you to keep it in place.
Cheers Vineeto
VINEETO: You cannot abandon the bad side of this particular feeling-complex without also abandoning the ‘good’ feeling which enables you to keep it in place. ANDREW: Thanks Vineeto, I had an insight into this, while sitting at a birthday lunch yesterday looking out over the ocean. The context is relevant, as it was a “fancy” restaurant, and is quite busy. An attractive woman looked over from outside at me and I felt the very familiar narcissism rise. A false image of myself. I was thinking about this whole ‘good’ and ‘bad’, along with the “being of the feeling, rather than having it” so it was a mystery what the “good” feeling I generate was. It is a false self image, as in an image of how I look and the feelings around that. VINEETO: Hi Andrew, I had spelt it out in the part you snipped from the above quote of mine –
You had mentioned being special before – “the “special” I feel I should
be”. ANDREW: I’ve never really seen the narcissistic aspect of myself so clearly. I know from reading about it, but not so clearly in life. VINEETO: Well, being endowed with the instinctual passions everyone is by nature self-centric. Narcissism is one step further, it means “excessive interest in or admiration of oneself and one’s physical appearance”. (Oxford Languages). The feeling was of a bashful type, a modesty, but a vicarious one as well, as the more
attractive a person is (the one looking at me) the more this feeling and false self arises. The way you describe it, it sounds more like being self-conscious. Whereas “the “special” I feel I should be” – both in the expectation of yourself and the outcome should you succeed to fulfil the expectation is something more likely connected to evincing shame. ANDREW: I started to minimise the entire dichotomy later, once I had seen more. It made me feel much better, as not only is it a lifelong habit, but it’s exhausting. I avoid people. Which I have seen up close in someone who was definitely NPD. (Narcissistic personality disorder). Literally hiding in the dark! What I particularly like about this whole situation of seeing the other side of shame, is that I can now see what “swings” me back to this side; a false self image! VINEETO: You seem to begin to get the knack of it – isn’t it fun to discover how ‘I’ tick, and then using it to feel good? ANDREW: Maybe there are better terms for all of this, but I like how it’s clear that being “unadorned” is preferable. At one point … VINEETO: The more you are affectively attentive the more you discover the “swings” to one side or the other, and the more detailed your observations will become. You can already see that “being ‘unadorned’”, i.e. being naïve, is the easiest and most enjoyable way to be as a feeling being. Cheers Vineeto
ANDREW: “Swinging” back and forth is a great metaphor! Yes, I have seen this before in a different context (being heart broken), and I was very conscious of trying to be in the middle, not on one of the other end of it. VINEETO: Hi Andrew, Let me just correct a possible misunderstanding of this metaphor of mine – when I said “the more you are affectively attentive the more you discover the “swings” to one side or the other” I meant being aware of your feelings swinging from ‘good’ feelings to bad feelings and anything in-between. The aim is not to “be in the middle” like some buddhistic-inspired equanimity but to recognize that both ‘good’ and bad feelings equally prevent you from feeling good. The aim is to recognize them both as silly and unnecessary, often being part of the same concept, belief, habitual pattern, and upon such recognition allow the whole concept, belief, habitual system/ topic to dissolve. Then you are free to enjoy and appreciate being here and being alive right now. ANDREW: … I started to get a glimpse of the type of wonder Richard was insisting I generate in our afternoon talking about science. The universe is indeed far more wonderful that I can imagine or conceive! That is starting to
sink in, and with the time I have at the moment, there is more of that interest and enthusiasm coming through. VINEETO: There is indeed no end to the wonder and amazement when observing and appreciatively contemplating any aspect of the universe. Just now I was sitting outside watching the sky with picturesque feathery cloud patterns, with a half-moon smack in the middle of it. while two couples of ducks were waddling along the green of the riverbank, a shoal of tiny fish wiggling on the surface, swallows hunting for mosquitoes and the glittering late afternoon sun colouring everything in a warm glow. Such rich appreciation doesn’t need to end when you get home because there are so many objects of human ingenuity, with labour-saving and comfort-providing details, to wonder and be amazed at. And while you are busy with enjoying and appreciating all this, a hushed stillness can come about, and …
Cheers Vineeto
VINEETO to Chrono: If that is what you are saying you have
certainly hit the nail of the head – coming down to earth from lofty heights, embracing the very physicality of
being alive, and as such also your mortality, is how you are able “to unreservedly say yes to being alive
right now”. ANDREW: I am not savvy enough with my iPad to put this in my journal, but this is such a significant thing for me to embrace. It’s been in the forefront of this whole endeavour, with a powerful first hand, everyday experience of why the spiritual path is so addictive to the majority of the world. Accepting death as final, the end, oblivion, IS accepting this is the only moment of being alive. Scientifically, we have between 2 and 20 seconds from the last time our heart beats before our
brain runs out of oxygen, we have a few minutes at most before there is no chance of reviving us. VINEETO: Hi Andrew, I am pleased to read you say that. It is indeed vital to fully accept that I am mortal and that nothing will survive physical death.
Here is another way of Richard explaining why all metaphysical dreams of living forever have no basis in fact –
Now when you combine this awareness of death being the end and that “nothing actually is of enduring importance” with the fact that “this is the only moment of being alive”, the only moment you can ever actively experience, then something profound can happen. You can allow yourself to slip out of your normal way of thinking and feeling, and experience the actual world as it is, for the first time. P.S.: Don’t cut it short or dismiss this due to your conditioning to fail Cheers Vineeto
ANDREW: Thanks Vineeto I have been contemplating something along these lines in my thoughts about alcohol and see that the seriousness talked about in Richard’s conversation with “Respondent” is just about as good a description of my MO as ever.! VINEETO: Hi Andrew, Here is what Richard is saying in the above quote and how you described your own MO regarding alcohol –
What alcohol does, according to your description, it softens the impact of the social identity – the critic, the one who believes he has to fail, the one who is anxious … and while those instinctual passions are normally curbed by the social identity they get more of a free reign under the influence of alcohol. This is not “something other than ”Me“ in control” – what you experience are the less socially-controlled instinctual passions, which are nevertheless “Me” in control. Your description of using alcohol to lessen the impact of your social control is the very reason why Richard gave this warning, repeatedly –
And:
What you call “natural hedonism” is one of the ‘good’, hedonically
pleasant, feelings, which you confuse with being happy and harmless – it is not. Your shortcut of using a
mind-altering drug (alcohol) to temporarily escape the socially conditioned critic is understandable but regarding actualism is leading you into
a blind alley. For clarification and further information, I recommend Richard, Abditorium, Hedonic Tone We corresponded about the difference of feeling good and ‘good’ feelings before
And to make the difference clear between feeling good and ‘good’ feelings –
ANDREW: That is that my body is “all for” living. It doesn’t need me at all. Like any animal without a ‘me’. Like a jellyfish for example that are washed up on the river’s edge. Those cells are not serious about anything at all! They are spawned, do what jellyfish cells do, and at some point end. Just like every cell in my body. Whether it’s a human cell, or the other 50% of non-human cells, they are all just doing “cell things”. I really enjoy this thought. I started doing some more exercise during the day, and “leaning into” the feeling. It’s not pleasant, but it’s what cells like! I can sense it that my body isn’t as attached to pleasure as I am. Muscle cells reward me with endorphins when they get to lift heavy things! My focus has been to understand how to work with what I have right now. In all aspects. Rather than allowing the “seriousness”. That’s good to be reminded of, as it was what I was seeing in myself. Good to have a name for it. VINEETO: The instinctual passions are also called animal instinctual passions – because all animals are endowed with instinctual programming/ passions to ensure their survival and species proliferation – even jellyfish operate by the principle of attraction/ repulsion, the most primitive instinctual behaviour. Jellyfish are not free from the instinctive/ instinctual programming or behaviour, they are not felicitous either, let alone harmless. They operate under the same principle as all instinctive/ instinctual programmed creatures – what can I eat, what can eat me? If you choose to find relief in regressing to thoughtless, purely instinctive/ instinctual animal status that is your prerogative but please don’t claim you were thus inspired by actualist writings. I can only recommend finding your initial sincere intent to feel good via the actualism method as you summarized it only recently –
… whereby minimising malice and sorrow means minimising both ‘good’ and bad feelings via attentiveness to how you feel and then, by recognizing that you are your feelings, choosing to feel good. It might require some firm common-sense to root out long-term acquired bad habits or longstanding training in feeling bad. ANDREW: Thanks for the links. VINEETO: Perhaps on sober re-reading you gain some better understanding and benefit. Cheers Vineeto
Freedom from the Human Condition – Happy and Harmless Vineeto’s & Richard’s Text ©The Actual
Freedom Trust: 1997-. All Rights Reserved.
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