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An Actual Freedom From The Human Condition
(List D refers to Richard’s List D
Vineeto’s Correspondence with Claudiu Discuss Actualism Forum
CLAUDIU: In terms of when this segues into naiveté, I’m not sure I can draw a clear demarcation. Everything I describe above really is a naïve approach. Maybe the naïve part really shines when I see that “oh it is just me!” with no moral judgement (‘good’ or ‘bad’), and then “oh I can make the choice!”, in that simple way. I should clarify a bit here – being naïveté is clearly a distinct thing (an EE really),
while being naive has a distinctive flavor as well. It is a feeling and a way of being that is certainly its own
thing, distinct from just a general sense of well being. But I don’t know if I can say clearly ‘when’ it starts
to happen while doing the above. I’d certainly say taking the sincere approach outlined here engenders naïveté,
but not sure if that is so satisfying a way to put it. VINEETO: Hi Claudiu, It’s a great topic and I would add that being naïve (eventually) includes an affective felicity and appreciation such as a gay abandon into marvel and wonderment of being alive, allowing a growing magnanimity and increasing self-lessness to flourish. Remember, it is the affective energy of the ‘good’ and bad feelings which is channelled into the affective felicitous and innocuous feelings. Or as Richard described appreciation more eloquently –
Perhaps this is also an appropriate opportunity for everyone’s benefit to re-introduce Richard’s suggestion how to be the key to being naiveté – from the “distinctive flavor” of being naïve to the “distinct thing (an EE really)” of being naiveté –
CLAUDIU to Syd Rather the dichotomy that I think you’re looking for at the highest level is affective vs. actual. Affective is the intimacy feeling-beings experience, while actual is the intimacy only in a PCE or when actually free. Then, within affective intimacy you have a further split between affectional intimacy (what people typically mean) and then naive intimacy, which is the gateway into an EE/IE and then a PCE/ self-immolation from there. The trick for a feeling-being then is to go from wherever one is, towards the naive way of being intimate/ way of being, which is what will deliver the goods. Also I think that thinking of actual intimacy as a “sensate immediacy” (‘just’ or not) is rather underselling it. It’s not just that you sense the other person, as in visually, ocularly, tactilely etc. There is also the immanence of being with another flesh and blood body, another human being. It is way, way more than just a sensate thing. There’s a delicious aspect to it that comes from being with someone else in and of itself, that is more than the sum of the parts of the senses. Maybe it relates to how one experiences pure intent not sensately, but, with one can say an “existential” sense – perhaps it is that same sense that senses the other’s presence? (Vineeto what you think?) VINEETO: Hi Claudiu, That is a brilliant way of rephrasing it, I could not have done it better myself. The word ‘affective’ includes a lot more than ‘affectional’. Regarding the word ‘existential’ – I did a search for how the word was used and came across what you wrote referring to pure intent –
As such your use of the word is spot on – there is not really another word for experiencing pure intent. As a cautionary note – for a feeling being there is generally too much going on affectively (psychically) and sensately that, even though possible, the existential sensing almost never gets noticed except for pure intent – it can happen of course, if not confused with psychic sensing. Perhaps the term ‘immanence’ for perceiving the existence in intimacy is perfectly applicable. A watered-down general use of the word ‘existential’ would not benefit clarity in communication. For instance, when you visited Geoffrey and could sense his pure intent personified, that was certainly existential sensing. As for sensing “the other’s presence” – I usually don’t sense anyone else’s presence outside of a sensate perception, except when there is an extraordinary event happening, for instance when I picked up a sweetness in the near-by town when Richard and Peter were interacting intensively. That would certainly be called an existential sensing event. Similarly, when at your first visit in Ballina I could sense you coming to the edge of the actual world.
Just for fun I collected a few of Richard’s quotes where he used the word ‘existential’ on List D –
CLAUDIU: Also I really like that post I wrote! I would second
(or third, as it were) what I said there VINEETO: It was an outstanding post, I especially liked your description of “jealousy-possession-love bundle”. It certainly comes as a package and everyone smitten with love experiences the rest of the bundle sooner or later. It is impossible to cultivate love without the other unless one wants to become enlightened. The vice-versa is true as well, when you give up jealousy or possession, love disappears – and with attentiveness and awareness can give room to intimacy. This ‘bundle’ is also at the heart of most power battles between the genders. When Henry said “dissolving into closeness with the other is freedom.” I was reminded of Byron Katie (a woman claiming to be enlightened) saying in an interview –
That’s the best one can get within the human condition. Also your explaining the actual experience of sweetness and the sticky sweetness of affection is excellent. “Naive intimacy and affectionate intimacy are impossible to combine.” CLAUDIU: Lastly I would say the near-innocent intimacy of
naiveté applies not just to people, but to places and things too – there is an immediacy to the surroundings.
Richard has oft talked about intimacy with an ashtray, for example, which often amuses people. So this is not
something restricted only to being around other people – however, the more you go up the animate scale, the more of
that other delicious quality comes into play – e.g. more with a dog than with an ashtray, and more with a human
than with a dog. VINEETO: From your description it seems you know more about it experientially than you let on .
VINEETO to Syd: Now this may not be the situation in your case but your recent reposting CLAUDIU: Mmm that’s interesting, Vineeto. I did think sensuousness referred to something ‘I’ do, a way of ‘me’ experiencing the world, which leads to apperception – at which point, while apperceptive, there is an actual sensuousness that is intrinsic, but the ‘me’ being sensuous is what allows ‘me’ to allow that PCE to happen. VINEETO: Hi Claudiu, I have no problem with your writing, and of course for a feeling being there is always in identity operating so the scare quotes are often purely academic. But when Syd singled out this single paragraph for reposting I wanted to avoid a misunderstanding in his mind so as to not emphasise ‘my’ action in the experiencing of a general sensuousness, as in ‘look at me I am being sensuous here’ because that would be counterproductive. It turned out that he needed this nudge in order to recognize that being sensuous is not “dry” at all, like in the spiritual/buddhistic practice, but can be full of joie de vivre and delight –
CLAUDIU: Reading the whole article VINEETO: The article is about how attentiveness and sensuousness can lead to apperceptiveness. CLAUDIU: Can you clarify for the record which it is? You did write (emphasis added):
The specific point is this: If sensuousness is something from which apperception / apperceptiveness can occur, then it is something which occurs before apperception, i.e. outside of a PCE. And if it’s outside of a PCE – it is, necessarily, something ‘I’ do. Or, at the very least, something ‘I’ allow to happen (analogous to allowing pure intent to increase in its potency for action). If sensuousness only occurs inside a PCE, then it does not make sense that it is something from which a PCE can occur, since it already would be occurring. VINEETO: I was simply going by what Richard wrote, for instance here –
If you analytically take apart the words and try to fit them into a logical concept you will always get into trouble with actualism – it is experiential and the words are describing the experiential event. For instance, when Richard wrote in the 1st paragraph of the 2nd section “When one first becomes aware of something there is a fleeting instant of pure perception of sensum” apperceptiveness occurs a split second “before one affectively identifies with all the feeling memories (…) and also before one cognitively recognises the percept”. So you might say there is a logical contradiction because sequentially it more often occurs when one has allowed attentiveness first. What is your own recollection when you experience sensuousness? Does it only occur in a PCE? Or can you delight in sensual and sensuous experiencing when feeling happy or feeling excellent? CLAUDIU: What I was attempting to convey in the initial quote is it’s something ‘I’ do, but not for the purpose of furthering ‘myself’ (i.e. tilting away from actuality), but rather something ‘I’ do for the purpose of tilting towards actuality, i.e. of allowing pure intent, allowing ‘myself’ to marvel at this wonder of being alive, which naive felicity readily lends itself to an EE (if one is not already occurring) and thence to a PCE. VINEETO: As I said at the beginning, I have no problem with your writing to Adam-B CLAUDIU: Let me know if that clarifies anything. As I write this now it seems to make sense to think of sensuousness as more analogous to pure intent, i.e. something ‘I’ allow to happen but not something ‘I’ do – and when a PCE is happening it is automatic. That does seem to track much better with my experience. VINEETO: It’s curious that you now say you “think of sensuousness as more analogous to pure intent” whereas in the beginning of this post you wrote “I did think sensuousness referred to something ‘I’ do”. In either case, pure intent is not something ‘you’ do. You may find my post to Syd of today informative –
Sensuousness can be analogous to pure intent but you would know that it is not pure intent per se. Otherwise I fully agree and it is delightful how easy fully enjoyed and appreciated sensual and sensuous experiencing can lead to excellence experience and PCE.
CLAUDIU: Hi Vineeto, VINEETO: I have no problem with your writing, and of course for a feeling being there is always in identity operating so the scare quotes are often purely academic. But when Syd singled out this single paragraph for reposting I wanted to avoid a misunderstanding in his mind so as to not emphasise ‘my’ action in the experiencing of a general sensuousness, as in ‘look at me I am being sensuous here’ because that would be counterproductive. CLAUDIU: Ok, that makes sense now. The point of confusion is if you were saying that sensuousness is something only occurring in a PCE. And then I found this quote (emphasis added):
i.e. that “sensuousness” has an “in-built apperceptive awareness”, and thus I thought it may be actual only. VINEETO: Hi Claudiu, I am delighted that it makes sense to you now. When you say “actual only” – being actually free automatically includes “apperceptive awareness” as the “vivifying facet”. That also means that the more the identity is in the background, the more one experiences the utterly delightful enjoyment and appreciation of sensuousness. I remember Kuba recently saying –
CLAUDIU: However I see now that you were just drawing an emphasis away from ‘me’ and towards the object/ point of sensuousness, rather than saying it can’t happen outside of a PCE – and of course, Richard was in that quote describing sensuousness as it occurs whilst apperceptive (PCE or actually free), not excluding that there is a feeling-being sensuousness that a feeling-being can make use of in order to lead towards apperception (much like enjoyment and appreciation itself being actual during a PCE/when actually free, and affective when outside of a PCE!) VINEETO: Yes, I am pleased you can see that. * CLAUDIU: Reading the whole article I can see now how it could be referring to just something that occurs in apperception. VINEETO: The article is about how attentiveness and sensuousness can lead to apperceptiveness. CLAUDIU: Yes, that is what I had thought before! VINEETO: I think the first sentence of the article specifies it most precisely –
Btw, I read in this thread, in a conversation you had with Kuba earlier, that you “never did like” the article (link). I understand you well because ‘Vineeto’ also did not particularly like the article, it was too confusing for ‘her’. However now, especially when I read only a few sentences here and there, I am impressed at the detail and precision of Richard’s observations and descriptions of how human consciousness operates. Now that there is no identity that might obscure what I read with previous concepts or ideas so as to confuse the content of Richard’s writing, it is treat to read it. * VINEETO: If you analytically take apart the words and try to fit them into a logical concept you will always get into trouble with actualism – it is experiential and the words are describing the experiential event. CLAUDIU: Yes, in this case it made sense though, the from which is logical (and aligns with experience) that it’s something that leads to a PCE as well, not only something in a PCE. VINEETO: What is your own recollection when you experience sensuousness? Does it only occur in a PCE? Or can you delight in sensual and sensuous experiencing when feeling happy or feeling excellent? CLAUDIU: It was a matter of what the words refer to – there is something that I was experiencing outside of a PCE that I was calling “sensuousness”, and then I became unsure that that was what to call it. Now I am sure again that it had been the correct word all along. Sensuousness really beings to shine during an excellence experience, where it takes on an aspect of that magical quality that is intrinsic to PCEs. At that level it really is a wide-eyed wonder at just how amazingly, thoroughly delightful and enjoyable being alive really is! It continues to knock my socks off. VINEETO: Yes, sensuousness can operate at any time, and the quality of it varies the less ‘you’ the identity interferes with feelings and classifications, and the more magical it can be. * VINEETO: It’s curious that you now say you “think of sensuousness as more analogous to pure intent” whereas in the beginning of this post you wrote “I did think sensuousness referred to something ‘I’ do”. In either case, pure intent is not something ‘you’ do. CLAUDIU: Haha oops. The ‘analogy’ was in the sense of sensuousness being something ‘I’ allow rather than something ‘I’ do. Sensuousness is more like an “allowing” rather than a “I can do it like I can move my hand” kind of thing. It does seem to really take on a life of its own once pure intent is in the picture, which imbues it all with that ‘magical quality’. VINEETO: Ah, that’s wonderful, especially when it takes on “a life of its own once pure intent is in the picture, which imbues it all with that ‘magical quality’”. That’s what is drawing you irresistible closer and closer to your destiny. *
CLAUDIU: Incidentally and for similar avoiding-watering-down purposes, I don’t like that
phrasing of “rememoration is the connection with pure intent” (as I wrote here Thus we would have it that “rememoration is the connection with the intimate connection betwixt the near-purity of the sincerity of naiveté and the pristine-purity of that actual innocence which is inherent to living life as a flesh-and-blood body only”. Indeed it would be too easy to drop the first ‘connection’ and be left with the erroneous “rememoration is the connection betwixt the near-purity of the sincerity of naiveté and the pristine-purity of that actual innocence which is inherent to living life as a flesh-and-blood body only”. I think a better phrasing would be that rememoration is the key to allowing pure intent (my only hesitation is that I’m not sure if it is the only key, so perhaps “one of the keys” is better). VINEETO: Yes, “one of the keys is better”. You certainly have a gift with words. CLAUDIU: In any case then we would have that “rememoration is the key to allowing that intimate connection betwixt the near-purity of the sincerity of naiveté and the pristine-purity of that actual innocence which is inherent to living life as a flesh-and-blood body only”, as well as “rememoration is the key to allowing the experience of that manifest life-force; that genuinely occurring stream of benevolence and benignity that originates in the perfect and vast stillness that is the essential character of the infinitude of the universe”. VINEETO: And once the connection is firmly established, pure intent (the universe, so to speak) can run one’s life, as in letting go of the controls, and interruptions or interference by dominant feelings happen less and less. CLAUDIU: Although it is true all this is experiential and the words can only describe it, it
is so much nicer when we can have our cake and eat it too, such that the words used are also more resilient and
robust in the face of an analytical taking-them-apart. It won’t matter much for those already with a firm
experiential basis (whether actually free or still a feeling being), nor for those feeling-beings who are more
intuitive in nature [e.g. the ~90% of the population that is not an “NT” type on the Myers-Briggs Type
Indicator], but it can perhaps benefit the more analytically-inclined among us [e.g. the ~10% of the population
that is an “NT” type, i.e. those of type INTJ/INTP/ENTJ/ENTP]. VINEETO: Ha, I didn’t even look up all those acronyms. But I remember when studying social sciences and psychology at university in my twenties, and after, I jumped at every possibility to figure out how to classify myself according to body-type, emotional or psychological make-up, even in the astrological category and many others. While discovering patters is what the human brain enjoys and is good at, to make certain patterns into ‘self’-classifications/ categorizations (make them a designated feature of one’s identity, like hanging a certificate on the wall) is not very practical when whittling away one’s identity. The human brain is, after all, malleable, else one would not be able to change human nature.
VINEETO to Syd: I will stop you right here. When you say you have been “putting
personal happiness over harmlessness” you are under the erroneous impression that you have done half of
what the actualism of becoming happy and harmless represents by simply following your drives and urges. CLAUDIU: Did you read the next part of Syd’s post where he wrote that he recognized that what that phrase you italicized here doesn’t refer to the actualist way of doing things? Emphasis added:
VINEETO: Hi Claudiu, I appreciate you trying to clarify. I read the paragraph from Syd several times and after your post came in I read it at least five more times and I still cannot make sense of it. He says he is “referring to above in my ”established happiness as no. 1 priority“” – but there is not [quote] “established happiness as no. 1 priority” [endquote] that I can find. So what is that “established happiness” referring to? And then he talks about a “personal happiness” which was in the first paragraph I responded, which is a different thing to the “established happiness as no. 1 priority”? It gives me knots in the brain. Perhaps you have more success in following all this – I lost interest for now.
Freedom from the Human Condition – Happy and Harmless Vineeto’s & Richard’s Text ©The Actual
Freedom Trust: 1997-. All Rights Reserved.
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