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Vineeto’s Correspondence on the Actual Freedom List Correspondent No 8
For a few days now I have mulled over your latest correspondences and your post to No. 27 particularly made me prick up my ears:
As a youth I became interested in Sartre’s ‘Philosophy of Saying No’ and the whole range of existentialism and nihilism, but upon further investigation I refused to consider that there is no way out of the misery and mayhem we are born into. I have experienced a few periods of depression in my life, which usually occurred after one or the other of my enthusiastic enterprises did not produce the hoped-for results. But even in the dismal, seemingly endless accumulation of grey, dull and barren days I was always searching for a way out and refused to resign to cynicism and bitter capitulation because that would have meant voluntarily living in hell for the rest of my life. Even when I experienced dread once, I refused to be completely drawn into the bottomless abyss of fear and terror, sucked into a despair that has no alternative, the combined conglomeration of human guilt, fear, resentment, hopelessness, desolation and despondency. This rather short intense experience left me bruised for two days, but I had seen enough of it to know that this is not the way to go. Hell has never been an option for me. But the option of Heaven, with its hypocrisy and failed recipes for happiness, proved also not to be an option for me, neither intellectually nor experientially. I had experienced the Eastern version of Heaven, an altered state of consciousness, which lasted for three days – I had wallowed in it and had deliberately looked into many of its nooks and corners. During this ASC, which is well described by all who have had an awakening or a permanent shift into enlightenment, I experienced in myself the luring self-delusion and the urge to construct a new spiritual world order but I also knew by contrast with a pure consciousness experience that this Glorious Feeling was far from being a pure state. I knew then by my own experience that the dreams of a Western Heaven and an Eastern Nirvana are indeed self-induced dreamlike states, promulgated by hypocrites, Messiahs and Wannabes and I didn’t find it worth pursuing any longer. So, what’s left? Of course, you can lump actualism with the hypocritical ‘Santas’ and thus forever close the door that could lead out of the nihilist hell of ‘yep it always comes down to nothin’, no alternative, not even actuality’. When I met Richard, I deliberately decided to consider the option that Richard is genuinely living what he is talking about. In this time I had several glimpses of the fact that Richard indeed lived in the actual world – a whiff of purity, a total lack of aggression in a situation where everyone else would have been up in arms, a genuine friendliness without any hidden agenda, in other words – innocence. I decided to try and understand this other than normal magical actual world that he was talking about. These glimpses of actuality gave me enough courage to want to know this actual world, experientially, for myself. And what I found and keep on finding speaks for itself. Actuality, as experienced in a pure consciousness experience, is sensuously evident, it requires neither passionate belief nor intellectual proof – the universe is happening, infinitely and eternally, whether anyone sees it or not or agrees with it or not. But to be experiencing this ongoing cornucopian unfolding of matter, animated matter and conscious animated matter is the most exquisite experience to have in one’s life. It leaves even happiness far, far behind in its superb abundance, its sparkling purity and its immeasurable variety. * To No. 27: I’m most probably here for the same reason everyone is, insatiable curiosity about the myriad ways the human condition reveals itself and to reinforce certain realisations dawning on human thought. <snip> External thinking is their bag, they use it to intellectualise ad nauseam about there being no being, in or out, all the while waffling on about killing something dead as a dodo (with what? Your guess is as good as mine) a something I can’t for the life of me find ;-) Have you tried naiveté yet? – the closest one can get to innocence from within the Human Condition. You wrote your own answer as to what counts –
All your loquacious protestations cannot conceal the fact that you are merely playing with ‘springboards’ thereby carefully avoiding the necessary ‘experiential impact’. Life is not a sick joke. (
To No. 27: I’m most probably here for the same reason everyone is, insatiable curiosity about the myriad ways the human condition reveals itself and to reinforce certain realisations dawning on human thought. <snip> External thinking is their bag, they use it to intellectualise ad nauseam about there being no being, in or out, all the while waffling on about killing something dead as a dodo (with what? Your guess is as good as mine) a something I can’t for the life of me find ;-) Have you tried naiveté yet? – the closest one can get to innocence from within the Human Condition. You wrote your own answer as to what counts –
All your loquacious protestations cannot conceal the fact that you are merely playing with ‘springboards’ thereby carefully avoiding the necessary ‘experiential impact’. Life is not a sick joke. Typical that you don’t see your own garrulous ramblings Vineeto. Even for an actualist there’s no escaping, you are what you see in another. I’m a hypocrite, so can I spot my own ilk a mile away. I found it particularly telling when you told Peter –
You say you notified your allies privately about yet another of your aliases? But you have told this list a long time ago that there is more to No. 8 than meets the eye –
And to the readers of listening-l you played the same stunt, this time the other way round –
As a poker player you should know that it is better not to grin when you bluff, and better not forget what you have said yesterday or yesteryear – otherwise the bluff doesn’t work. So now No 22 has called you M(onsieur). 8 because of your private confiding and No 27 addressed you as ‘an insightful man’ and No 12 has indicated you are a female. I don’t think it makes any difference if you play your game as a male or a female identity by whatever name – it is still a flesh and blood body that types those words and reads these posts. * When you say ‘I’m a hypocrite, so can I spot my own ilk a mile away’ then your theoretical logic leads completely up the wrong alley. Every human being is born with the propensity for deceit, in fact deceit is one of the four characteristics of the ‘theory of mind’ that develops in children by age four to four and a half. Typically, by this age children can basically (a) distinguish between physical and mental objects, (b) reason about ideas, (c) ascribe false knowing (beliefs) in others, (d) engage in pretence (deceive and cheat). Interestingly enough, it is this last point (deceit) which most of all signals the ‘theory of mind’ as having become established. However, as long as one believes that deceit is the only way of life and that it is necessary and desirable to cultivate this trait then one is, by one’s own choice, blinded to the felicity of naiveté, sincerity and integrity. Only someone who is longing for integrity, sincerity and innocence, someone who is sick and tired of being part of the deceit of the Human Condition, can recognize the quality of authenticity and integrity in someone else. One has to at least question the validity and necessity of continuing the falseness and yearn to become genuine in order to recognize the way out when it is presented. But my hypocrisy doesn’t make silly childish cockeyed conclusions through cyberspace like:
... unless, unless, it’s trying to cover its own hypocritical ass and avoiding its own experiential impact by: making a living from a spiritual meditation workshop whilst looking down your nose because you believe their agenda is NOT! Peace on Earth and is instead contributing to all the wars, rapes, suicides, murders and child abuse etc., etc. on the earth. So much for actualising actualism huh? You are referring to
I don’t quite understand where you see the hypocrisy. Being non-hypocritical in your terms could only result in one of the following options –
Honestly, I can’t see any sense in any of the four options, can you?
However, the situation is different on this mailing list, which is specifically set up as a forum in which to talk about and investigate every aspect of the Human Condition, all social-spiritual-religious conditioning as well as the animal instinctual passions everyone is born with. When I told the story I was not ‘looking down [my] nose’ at the spiritual world, I was simply making a factual statement that people who are on the other-worldly spiritual path have great difficulty being happy in the market place – it is not their main focus in life. You are once again aiming to shoot the messenger instead of looking at the content of the message. Do you know any spiritual belief that works? Do you know of any guru that has a peaceful, harmonious and equitable relationship with his or her partner? Do you see peace in a world of people who have followed ancient wisdom for thousands of years? Can you name any religion or spiritual belief that has peace on earth in this lifetime as this flesh-and-blood body on their agenda? As a subscriber to this non-spiritual mailing list you will be confronted with inquiries into every kind of spiritual belief, with diligent investigation of facts, with personal anecdotal stories about what works and what does not work. Should you feel offended about such investigations and stating of facts then you have simply come to the wrong place.
Here I am writing again... it is a magnificent winter’s night, the full moon is half through the sky, the stars are sparkling and the ocean roars in the distance. And here I am, once again clarifying your confusing allegations – P.S. If I were claiming to be beyond enlightenment Vineeto and preaching *drop affection* on my pristine parchment paper, I’d expect an offended No. 8 to come along and give me a run for my irresponsible ass that’s for sure. I am astounded how you can get the facts so utterly jumbled up in one single paragraph after all the years of reading and writing on this list. Maybe, just maybe, you are looking too hard for a hidden agenda such that you remain forever ‘an offended No 8’, agent provocateur and renowned flameur. Even if you are now claiming you are here for some noble cause as in keeping the bastards honest or cutting them down to size, you are still ‘an offended No 8’ who claims the central role in casting and the dominant role on this list. Lets face it, you would be out of a job if you took my words at face-value.
* I don’t invade other people with my personal investigations into life and what it is to be a human being, unless they ask me and when they start feeling offended I immediately change the topic. That is not only common sense but also consideration for everybody’s free choice to investigate the human condition or not. Alan: You hit the nail on the head, Vineeto. Not long after discovering Richard's web site (as it was then), I discovered that attempting to get another to accept that life was meant to be fun and free of malice and sorrow, was not only difficult it was downright silly. Giving up attempts to change the other (especially for their own good!) was a difficult one to accept. Each and every person has the choice to be malicious and sorrowful or happy and harmless. I have chosen happy and harmless. No 8 : Thank you Alan! And we wonder why they press on. You have omitted the last paragraph where I explained why ‘they press on’ – as you call it.
I don’t ‘press on’ to change you – that is completely your own business and responsibility. But I am certainly not keeping my mouth shut about the discoveries I am making with the actualism method because someone deliberately choses to stay on this list so as to feign being offended by facts. Peace on earth is too high a price to be stifled by petty and unsubstantiated allegations from contumacious souls, particularly when they come to this list under false pretences with the sole purpose of pushing their own agenda. To investigate one’s own emotions has never been a very popular enterprise, neither in the real world nor in the spiritual world as far as I have observed. And to even consider that it is possible to live without ego and soul is certainly a shocking discovery for most. However, it only takes a clear-eyed look around to see that none of the offered solutions has bored any fruit in the thousands of years of application – neither the monotheistic Western religions nor the polytheistic Eastern religions nor any other allotheism has resulted in people living together in peace and harmony. The reason is that the aim was always to transcend one’s ego while the soul was not only let off scot-free but in the process of transcending the ego, the Self became aggrandized like all get-out. Three thousand of years of recorded history have confirmed what Richard discovered in his diligent investigation of enlightenment – the spiritual method of questioning one’s thoughts neither tackles nor eliminates the underlying animal instinctual passions. In honestly investigating and examining the affective quality of his state of enlightenment he discovered that sublimating and transcending one’s ego only results in a grand delusion of Super-ego – while the instinctual identity remains fully intact and, absolutely unrestricted by common sense, creates even more havoc than before. Actualism aims at eliminating both ego and soul, in order to experience the peace that is already here when ‘I’ as ego and ‘me’ as soul step out of the way. Did you not, even for a short moment, experience such freedom from ego and soul? In short moments of self-forgetfulness, one can experience everything around in almost psychedelic colours, one’s hearing is intensified, one’s senses are highly perceptive, all fear and animosity magically disappear, the abundance of the universe becomes apparent and one marvels at the magnificence of it all. Most, if not all, people have had non-affective nature experiences or pure consciousness experiences at some time in their life, however, as there is no affective memory functioning during the experience, it is not easy to remember. Unfortunately, at some time during these pure experiences, the self usually quickly steps in and claims the experience as its own, spoiling the purity by interpreting it as a God-experience, a Love-experience or adding some other affective attributes to what was originally a pure sensate experiencing of the actual world. Unless someone does remember such a pure consciousness experience, it is difficult to understand the actual world that we are talking about – it is unimaginable and non-affective and one has to be willing, at least for a short moment, to drop one’s own agenda and take the risk of stepping outside of who one thinks and feels oneself to be. It took me three month of sometimes gut-wrenching inquiry into my beliefs and feelings, my gender conditioning and my spiritual training to get to the stage where I suddenly popped through the world of beliefs and discovered a whole new and stunning world, completely independent of what I believed, thought or felt – the actual world. You see, No. 8, I am not pressing on, as you say, because it does not matter what you believe or don’t believe – the actual world exists independently of what anybody believes, thinks or feels about it. That is the very nature of actual. It is such a gem to have discovered and frequently revisited, that I don’t want to deny my fellow human beings the possibility of taking a look for themselves. As I know how difficult it was for me to disentangle myself from the psychic web of my feelings and beliefs in order to be able to see this actual world, I keep talking about it as well as I am able to. Someday someone else will come along and go ‘bingo, now I know what you are talking about because I have experienced it as well!’ It’s a delicious affair to becoming actually free from the Human Condition.
I found it particularly telling when you told Peter – ‘Sorry to disappoint you but No. 12 and No. 22 giggle at your every attempt, since they have long been well aware of my alias. I notified them privately the moment we began corresponding on this list .’ You say you notified your allies privately about yet another of your aliases? But you have told this list a long time ago that there is more to No. 8 than meets the eye –
And to the readers of listening-l you played the same stunt, this time the other way round –
As a poker player you should know that it is better not to grin when you bluff, and better not forget what you have said yesterday or yesteryear – otherwise the bluff doesn’t work. So now No 22 has called you M(onsieur). No 8 because of your private confiding and No 27 addressed you as ‘an insightful man’ and No 12 has indicated you are a female. I don’t think it makes any difference if you play your game as a male or a female identity by whatever name – it is still a flesh and blood body that types those words and reads these posts. No 8 coming clean yet again Trotting it out again Vineeto! How desperate :-) What are you afraid of, that your malice might not be making its mark? And that you may never be able to off load the arrows you so obviously nurse in your own heart – you’d be right you know. And it’s a sad state of affairs. What you appear to be saying is that objectors or antagonists are free to raise objections to actualism and put forward all kinds of allegations about actualists and if actualists point out the contradictions, discrepancies and incongruities in the objections or allegations then they are being malicious in doing so. As there were neither malicious feelings nor a malicious intent in my
presenting the facts but simply the aim to set the records straight, you must be mixing up the terms of For an actualist, however, such personal affective response to facts is always a welcome opportunity to dig into an investigation as to just what it is that made me upset over a fact. ‘How am I experiencing this moment of being alive?’ ‘Why am I upset or why am I feigning being upset? When I encounter an emotional response to what I, upon honest investigation, recognize as a fact, then I stop in my tracks, examine any occurring blind instinctual reaction that might take place and find out exactly what it is that is upsetting me. No matter who or what triggered my emotional response, it is always ‘my’ social conditioning and ‘my’ animal instinctual program that comes to the surface, which then can be observed, examined and dealt with. To blame whom, or rile against what, seemed to have offended is to miss the opportunity for investigating one’s own psyche in action. The whole purpose of this mailing list is to talk about how we investigate the Human Condition in ourselves, what obstacles we encounter and what successes we have in the process of becoming free of our automatic social and instinctual programming. Attacking others for their supposed or real hypocrisy or malice is schoolyard stuff – this is merely acting out one’s automatic attack-and-defence program. The growing up process begins when one stops blaming people, things and events for making one to be angry or sad and starts observing one’s own feelings and actions, one’s desires and loves, hates and fears, attachments and dreams in order to become free of their insidious impact. By tackling one upsetting issue after the other, one successively becomes free of their influence. Less and less situations now cause me to be upset or incur any emotional reaction. The final step is when I acquiesce to my demise to pave the way for peace on earth and confirm by my action that everyone can become free from the Human Condition. However, if you want to wait for this final proof of yet another pioneer becoming free before you become interested in actualism, you are welcome to be my guest. * You see, I entered the AF mailing list having already seen an abundance of Richard’s verbal malice and sorrow (and all the rest of it) scattered callously about the K-list. His whole manner (as I clearly documented) was a far cry from the happy harmlessness he believed actualism had to offer. So I came here to prove it to myself – and to those contemplating adopting his behaviour whether it was a wank or not. I don’t understand – you have ‘already seen an abundance of Richard’s verbal malice and sorrow’ and then you still needed to ‘prove it’ to yourself? It does not make sense. What proof do you need, and why, when you are already convinced that Richard is ‘malice and sorrow’? Sounds very much like hunting him down for sport to me. Further your documented evidence that you recently offered to this list was doctored and no documentation was provided of Richard’s verbal sorrow – even you had difficulties with this claim. But how to go about it. I needed a plan. I knew that its devotees would find my ruthless probing abhorrent and take a bite, particularly if my hunch was right – that they were no where near virtually free. It seems that you already ‘knew’ an amazing lot of things about the participants here before you ever talked to anyone on this list – just from reading Richard’s correspondence. In legal terms this would rather be called unsubstantiated fictitious assumptions. But that wasn’t enough, I needed to give you guys some ammunition. I noticed on the K-list that Richard was psychotically focused on other people’s dishonesty. Great way to avoid seeing one’s own – I have read all of Richard’s correspondence on listening-l and I have seen him pointing out the facts to people, patiently and candidly, people who objected to facts because those facts stood in the way of their dearly held beliefs. To make Richard responsible for, or even call him ‘psychotically focused’ on, the dishonesty of others while they were desperately and sometimes hilariously attempting to prove the facts wrong is quite a feat of mental acrobatic. ... so I chose to enter his mailing list with two of my seven legal names that had hitherto been unseen by him. Seven legal names you have? Isn’t it a bit confusing in real life ... do you have seven driver’s licences? And just a tip for your next coup de grâce – or should I rather say ‘coup d’état’? Unless you change your personality, style and tactics along with your name, you will be easily recognized although I don’t know if that is also part of your plan. If you really want to become anonymous then the best way is to become completely self-less. We offer a very successful method here to achieve this very aim. (BTW it was telling to see his class consciousness immediately jump out and mistake No. 8 for my common garden No. 8). Are you referring to the ‘class consciousness’ of a boy from the farm? You didn’t object to No. 22 calling you M(onsieur) No. 8, which is even classier than merely ‘No. 8’, but you clearly had an investment to keep your gender in the twilight zone. Vis:
The plan was that at the height of your desperation, you guys would cunningly use that ammunition – so stealthily planted – and prove to all and sundry that your malicious was still very much alive. I’m impressed – two of your legal names were not just thrown in for confusion but were ‘planted’ ‘ammunition’ to bring us to the ‘height of desperation’ ... wow ... so that when I called your bluff about your dance of identities and your cross-posting of false information, then I am the one who is malicious? You could apply for a job at a counter-counter-counter-revolutionary agency, maybe as a triple agent. They might have use for such a strategic thinking chap/lady. But, joking aside, with your plan you have only confirmed to yourself what you already believed before you came to this list – that Richard has ‘an abundance of verbal malice and sorrow’ and that we are ‘devotees’ who will find you ‘abhorrent’ and are therefore ‘nowhere near virtually free’. Which means, for the plan to be successful you then have to pretend to be offended so as to then declare that I am malicious, therefore nowhere near virtually free... Phew, it’s really complicated – I’m glad you explained it to me now. To started the ball rolling it was just a simple matter of pretended to sign one of my other legal names by mistake ... oops ... damn :-) ... and from there – if everything unfolded according to plan – all hell would break loose from your imprisoned and far from unconditioned souls. I lost you here. What hell? Do you consider your own words quoted back at you as ‘all hell broke loose’? At my end I am having a great time on the keyboard and hell is nowhere in sight. I certainly stand no nonsense from a disgruntled spiritualist with a persecution mania and I am simply putting some records straight when you unleash your unsubstantiated allegations. As for ‘far from unconditioned souls’ – an unconditioned soul does not exist. Nothing could be farther from being unconditioned than one’s soul of ‘self’. A soul is always conditioned, a soul is one’s very Being, the core of one’s instinctual passions. One can, however, become free from the instinctual program that constitutes our soul – one can step out of being a ‘self’ /soul altogether and free this flesh-and-blood body from the self’s overarching influence in order to experience the peace on earth that already exists. And it did as predictable as any wild animals; here you are below, desperately attempting for the umpteenth time to impotently inflict your pain. What pain? I don’t feel any pain, neither psychological nor physic pain. I am having the time of my life. I enjoy writing and I enjoy the thrill of living on the cutting edge of – almost – being out from control. Of course, it is a fact that I am not in control of what happens and to live this fact is a thrilling challenge every day. Thank you guys, you proved my points without any difficulty at all. And just in time – before the list closes. I have exposed your complete and utter lack of happy harmlessness, effortlessly. Let me reiterate what you supposedly proved ‘without any difficulty at all’. Your points were that –
Apart from your own emotion-based conviction repeated over and over again, there has been no proof so far that Richard has ‘an abundance of [] verbal malice and sorrow’, but that is of course hard to see when one disagrees with what he has to offer. ‘Self’-immolation of both ego and soul is certainly not everyone’s cup of tea.
I know Richard not only from his writing but I have also spent numerous hours in his company and ‘his whole manner’ has never shown any signs of malice or sorrow, neither exasperation nor indignation, neither unfriendliness nor malicious intent, neither grumpiness nor sadness. He has always been right upfront about his agenda – peace on earth – and, as I have used the method of actualism, I can confirm that it indeed successfully delivers happiness and harmlessness. As you came to this list for your own reasons – with a pre-set plan, several aliases, a shifting gender identity, planted ammunition and plenty of abuse and accusation – you have not even begun to study what actualism has to offer, let alone can you experientially confirm that it is ‘a far cry from’ being happy and harmless.
What you call ‘take a bite’ is my response to your concocted allegations and shifting identities – I simply put the facts on the table? And to think that your ‘ruthless probing’ is ‘abhorrent’ is taking yourself far too serious. As I am my own most ruthless critic because I want to completely free myself from malice and sorrow, your so-called probing can only assist in my own adventure. But there is no need to oblige – even without your contribution there will be no shortage of protestors and objectors who will delight in ‘ruthless probing’ in the future.
Your argumentation so far has shown that you cannot distinguish between
malice and the pointing out of facts. You even go as far as denying the existence of So, now that actualism too has failed you Vineeto, what are you going to do? Let it keep pulling the wire wool over your eyes or stand on your own two feet for a change? Ha, whatever you think has failed for me – actualism hasn’t failed. It is even more successful after your ‘ruthless probing’ because I find myself quite amused rather than offended. The actual world has never ceased to exist despite your efforts to deride and scorn the people who report about it. The ‘wire wool’ over my eyes was removed when I began questioning all my spiritual beliefs, all that I held dear and true, all that I felt was right and all that I imagined to be good. Merely investigating malice and sorrow in myself is not the whole story in actualism, although it is certainly a task not many even consider to begin. It is also necessary to investigate all the hoping and loving and good and virtuous and holy feelings and beliefs, for they are the most insidious. The ‘wire wool’ was removed ever since I stopped believing in God and consequently in his representatives – all the ‘Divine Beings’, the Revered Masters, the Holy Teachers, the Enlightened Gurus and the Divinely Deluded. Since I investigated every inkling of spiritualism in me, I have been walking on my own two feet, closer and closer to my destiny. Nothing has changed in my direction because of my interchange with you – on the contrary, my determination and commitment has stood another test of antichthonism. Bye all Bye, No. 8 and No. 8 and No. 8 and No. 40 (List B). I do wonder though, which of your other legal names you are going to use next time round. You wouldn’t be the first who succumbs to the fatal attraction that actualism can have. See ya around
1) I’m yet to be convinced
instinctual passions exist as such, and even doubt any portion of the universe can be eradicated. Re-directed perhaps,
re-combined, but abstracted? From all that eventuates? Nah. To a brain perceiving in linear terms yesterday may seem
eradicated, but is it really? We know so little, even the realm of knowing maybe a barking up the wrong tree. And what
instinctual passions, we have habitual passions but given enough incentive we drop them like hot cakes, yet was anything
really eradicated or just reconfigured the way neurons constantly are, like all creatures though ours change according
to our mental/emotional environment too. Why does the universe experiment endlessly, and not be content with the first
amoeba that actualised. Maybe there is only one passion, the passionate instinct to change. Why eradicate that? No. 8 to No. 23, 2.7.2001 Vineeto’s Text © The Actual Freedom Trust |
